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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#401
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Europe already produces EUV lithography machines, and while I'm not that familiar with the field, I'm pretty sure ASML and TSMC are already working on 2nm lithography.

TSMC is aiming at 2024 for 2nm, they're the market leader and they reportedly started research back in 2019 https://wccftech.com/tsmc-2nm-research-taiwan/ https://wccftech.com/ssmc-mass-produce-2nm-2024/ now a consortium of runner ups not only hopes to catch up, but plans a parallel release of a new node size, while starting later, while starting with less know how.

TSMC purchases their lithography machines from ASML.

https://semiengineering.com/euv-challenges-and-unknowns-at-3...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand, ASML is not the creation of government funding, but instead a spinout of Philip and ASMI, two successful Dutch electronics companies. ASML was successful in a competitive market, dominated by Japanese companies pretty quickly. In other words, very different model from what the EU is currently trying.

You are correct. The discussion about ASML is relevant in that state of the art chips cannot be produced without one of their TwinScan lithography tools. ASML is the only company that can build tools with 7nm and below capability. In the context of the EU developing the ability to fabricate state-of-the-art chips, ASML would sell them the TwinScan tools they needed, which are just one species of about 40 that are use…

If ASML is the only company that can do what they do and anyone else would need decades to catch up, how are they not the most profitable company in the world?

All of the world's most profitable companies depend dearly on chips. If they are literally the only company that can provide this critical part of the chip production, why aren't they taking a larger portion of the profit?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#403
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing chlorinated chicken to diesel is just insane.

I visited the UK and the first thing I noticed when I was walking around the cities and towns as how much they stunk of diesel. Air quality made even the worst of US cities look good..

That is from old diesel cars. They are getting banned from cities.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#404
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't this typical to R&D ? that only 1 of N projects gets used for commercial purposes ?

I read the previous comment as: there wasn’t anyone at the end trying to help make it actually commercialized

It’s more than that in my experience, often the concept was a non starter, or the output is nothing an enterprise couldn’t do it self if so motivated, and certainly aren’t going to bother picking through the mess of some academic code base.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#405
post #174

Serious question: Why is the EU so far behind in tech company influence/leadership compared to the US and Asia? Europe has successful tech enterprises, but surely is capable of so much more on a global scale.

Why do you think EU is behind in tech? As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the lithography machines used by all state of the art IC nodes is designed in Europe. It’s one of the most complex machines on the planet.

Then there’s mega projects like LHC and ITER (international projects, but it’s not pure chance that they’re located in Europe) and Wendelstein 7-X.

My pet example is Nordic Semiconductor, which has an insanely good position in the Bluetooth LE device market. What’s also interesting is that two of the major competitors also design their chips in Norway. Although those companies do illustrate one problem in Norway (and perhaps Europe in general): the lack of capital at certain stages. In the IC businesses it seems most companies are acquired by US companies eventually.

Let’s look at EVs. Europe doesn’t have Tesla. But seems like most European car makers are doing OK with EVs. Arguably better than US incumbent car makers. VWs new platform is one of the most promising right now, although this project has shown that VW has a problem with software engineering. But so does most other older car companies in the world. There are also some interesting start ups that’s more focused on designing/supplying components, such as Rimac and Kreisel. Rimac seems to go toe-to-toe with Tesla on extreme performance.

I believe a lot of robots used in advanced manufacturing is German as well?

In general I have the impression that Europe is very strong in designing/making components and manufacturing machines and such. Things that the end consumer never hears about. Very few have heard about ASML, but everyone has heard about Intel. So maybe that contributes to the impression that EU is behind on tech.

Europe has also been ahead of the US in adopting tech on the consumer side in several areas. The US was in the stone age for a long time when it came to banking and payment for instance.

How do you measure being behind/ahead in tech?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#407
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's an understandable reaction if you just look at the raw USD value, but that's very far from the full picture. They are not pitiful when you start adding the costs for housing, healthcare, transportation and the rest of the things that you need to live. At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD ( http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/ ), where…

And that’s not even specific to tech salaries. A typical Bay Area TC of $250-400k for a senior engineer will also include great healthcare so there is basically no competition in any European location. You have to specifically want to live in a European city for the culture/walkability/etc or else there is just no reason to take tech jobs there.

You have actually addressed the actual issue here but from wrong perspective.

Culture is the issue here. EU tries to live, USA tries to earn. If the only thing that interests you is money then yes, probably USA is the right direction. Of all the people that I know that went working outside of their country, they were mostly going to EU companies (or USA companies in Europe), sometimes to the Asia. None left for USA. On the other side I know a CTO that left USA for Europe and bought a small property in France where he lives with whole family.

This shows very well in environmental laws, gdpr, protection of workers, actually having friends, nature, having hill-climbing organizations that aren't only lobist groups to be actually allowed to climb the mountains, public transport, able to drink spring water in center of capital city, most people working 40h/week max, actually do use their vacations in one piece, free education, maternity leave measured in years not months (yes under a year too but not month or two),...

So it depends on the personal cultural preference. Some people just love the money and things they can buy with it, maybe even power that it brings and surely a lot of such people are also in EU. The difference is in the percentage of population although Hollywood did great job at exporting the view of world trough money glasses.

---

Regarding the topic. EU was quite satisfied with buying processors from the States, it was also happy with using Windows, Android, Apple thing. The problem is, as in every other thing, USA corporations became vampires that wants to eat you alive from pure greed and systemic addiction to blood (endless growth).

It has become imperative to produce our own processors as you can no longer trust USA or China to not shovel inside some spying equipment. Well the times have changed and it is no longer an option to buy it from USA/China, so EU has moved forward and dont worry, we will have our own chips our own phones and operating system (linux, sailfish or something else...).

EU is an elephant and it needs a lot of coordination of muscles to move its legs but once it starts moving...

I am sorry, I would love to just use the USA/China products and not re-develop hardware (based on what we know now, maybe not dragging 40 years old anchor of previous development with me), not having a need for GDPR, but they have both just screwed everything up from pure greed. Now we need to fix it and a lot of time and resources will have to go that way. But we will eventually fix it.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#408
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. The discussion about ASML is relevant in that state of the art chips cannot be produced without one of their TwinScan lithography tools. ASML is the only company that can build tools with 7nm and below capability. In the context of the EU developing the ability to fabricate state-of-the-art chips, ASML would sell them the TwinScan tools they needed, which are just one species of about 40 that are use…

If ASML is the only company that can do what they do and anyone else would need decades to catch up, how are they not the most profitable company in the world? All of the world's most profitable companies depend dearly on chips. If they are literally the only company that can provide this critical part of the chip production, why aren't they taking a larger portion of the profit?

At some point their customers will stop worrying about using 7nm and go back to double-digit nanometres. CPU tech from the 2000s is adequate for most workloads, let alone stuff from 2010.

I'm sure there is a lot of stuff where 7nm is necessary to get certain outcomes, but it is a small market compared to what could be reasonably done with older process technologies.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Had the west not interfered, the USSR would recover from the 80s crisis. Instead, they took advantage of its shortcomings and managed to break up the union: Gorbachev is considered by many Russians a traitor, but he was not the only western investment in toppling the Soviet Union. Let's remind that full-on opening of the market was not what the west promised, but it's what they pushed for once the reforms pa…

I think you miss a crucial fact here - large part of Soviet block was incorporated by force and wanted to get rid of their influence as fast as possible. Nobody misses USRR here in Poland.

Poland is a weird example since it doesn’t seem like they fit in the EU either, almost like an outcast.

But let’s look at other ex-Soviet countries. Territorial quarrels and dumb nationalism were unthinkable back then. Look at Azerbaijani and Armenians, ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine, Georgia...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#410
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering what it has to do and support, the EU has surprisingly little bureaucracy, although obviously it's huge in absolute terms.

A relative is a middle manager in one of the biggest tech organizations in EU; only 60% of their huge organization is doing actual work and that 60% includes the management of the actual experts; the rest are "support functions" with very well paid positions for people appointed by the member states with strong political connections and no relevant skills vs. hired with interviews for the 60%. But even in the 60% the…

> This book contains three basic ideas. The first is an output-oriented approach to management. That is to say, we apply some of the principles and the discipline of the most output-oriented of endeavors—manufacturing—to other forms of business enterprise, including most emphatically the work of managers. Consider Intel, which is a true manufacturing and production company, making highly complex silicon chips as well as computer-like products built from them. Our company now has over thirty thousand employees. Of these, about 25 percent actually work to make the products. Another 25 percent help them as they supervise the personnel, maintain the machines, and engineer and improve the manufacturing process. Another 25 percent work in administration, where they schedule production, keep personnel records, send bills to our customers, and pay our suppliers. Finally, the remaining 25 percent design new products, take them to the marketplace, sell them, and service them after the sale.

Andy Grove, High Output Management, about Intel (at the time when they were successful)

I think there are many, many (not directly) productive functions that successful business needs to have and engineers often underestimate those (I certainly know I often do).

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