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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#331

Post by cnmlqk »

rusk wrote: post #255
Eridrus wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a fair amount of people who think the LHC was not a wise use of resources since it did not give any clues to a new theory beyond the existing "Standard Model" https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-no-new-particles-means-f... It's obviously easy to say this in hindsight and it wasn't necessarily obvious when this started, but it definitely cost more than it had to because it was an EU project that had to hand…

You are literally using a tangible benefit right now.

We would be using another subset of SGML otherwise. There's no way that something resembling the WWW wouldn't have been invented without CERN.

And Einstein's patent office was cheaper.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#332

Post by usr1106 »

djbebs wrote: post #72
wwwwwwwww wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always been normal in the EU. There is little innovation here based on private risk taking, almost no venture capital, and huge barrieres for banks to lend money to innovators.

The fact that its practically impossible to legally invest and create a business in the EU makes that almost inevitable

EU has very limited to no impact how businesses are created. Some member states are more flexible (Estonia) than others (probably a long list).

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#333

Post by tsimionescu »

nickpp wrote: post #156
tsimionescu wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's a great example of what I'm saying. The vaccine is payed for by states - they had a 100% guaranteed worldwide market. Whether they invested their own money (like BioNTech) or were explicitly financed by a state (like Moderna and Pfizer), the money for that research will ultimately be payed almost entirely by the state.

No. States are simply clients, buyers of the end-product. Investors included VCs and states. But the Tech was built by the startups.

Guaranteed wealthy clients are equivalent to investors. They're actually better, because you don't have to pay them back.

One of the main ways that states fund technological advances is exactly by promising to buy the results. This was one of the most important things in early IT - the fact that the US army was buying it at all. If the companies in that space would have had to live by selling their tech on the free market, no one would have been crazy enough to invest in it.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#334

Post by sorenjan »

kingosticks wrote: post #272
jorvi wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> aerospace Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace. > energy CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU. We are world leaders in wind energy. > telecom Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. > drugs / biotech BioNtech made the first breakthrough on a COVID vaccine. The EU has many…

> Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. That's entirely political and nothing to do with the tech. Huawei's tech is arguably better, cheaper (and available now).

How much of Huawei's research is done in EU? They have at least three research facilities in Sweden alone. Ericsson does a lot of research in the US. All of these companies are global, so to assign their research to only the country where they're headquartered gets a bit nonsensical.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#335

Post by rvba »

kingosticks wrote: post #272
jorvi wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> aerospace Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace. > energy CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU. We are world leaders in wind energy. > telecom Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. > drugs / biotech BioNtech made the first breakthrough on a COVID vaccine. The EU has many…

> Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. That's entirely political and nothing to do with the tech. Huawei's tech is arguably better, cheaper (and available now).

It is cheaper since the chinede spy agencies sponsor it.

If you knew that important people would use your phones you could as well give them for free - easier to spy on them.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#336

Post by tsimionescu »

xiphias2 wrote: post #285
tsimionescu wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's a great example of what I'm saying. The vaccine is payed for by states - they had a 100% guaranteed worldwide market. Whether they invested their own money (like BioNTech) or were explicitly financed by a state (like Moderna and Pfizer), the money for that research will ultimately be payed almost entirely by the state.

States are making monopolies with their militaries. I don't need a state to buy the vaccine, actually I signed up for a private vaccination, and I would pay significantly more than the states, but states are given priority because of their power.

That's irrelevant, because whoever you are, you have much less money than the US and the EU and the UK and [...].

Not to mention, there is no way to take this vaccine without specialized medical care, so even if people could buy it, they would still need medical care as well, which most people in most of the world get from the state anyway.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#337

Post by hndudette2 »

singhrac wrote: post #131
WanderPanda wrote: post #82

I might have looked positively at this if the bureaucrats would have actual skin in the game and would be judged by the outcome in 5-10 years. But in the likely case that this will fail and most of the money will be drained through lobbyism etc., nobody will talk about it and they will come up with the next thing they can throw money at to come across as being super innovative. Disclaimer: I used to work at a company…

Maybe you could use your experience to propose a system (whether funding vehicle restrictions or proper incentives) for that not to happen in this case? I think we’d all be excited by that. How can we avoid spending money on lobbyists? Maybe the structure should be more VC-like?

Putting structure aside for now (although I agree we want an answer to that), I don't see why we even want governments allocating capital to projects like this in the first place when the space is already very competitive with loads of private money. It seems like a classic case of big government doing big government things to justify their own existence.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#338

Post by nickpp »

tsimionescu wrote: post #333
nickpp wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. States are simply clients, buyers of the end-product. Investors included VCs and states. But the Tech was built by the startups.

Guaranteed wealthy clients are equivalent to investors. They're actually better, because you don't have to pay them back. One of the main ways that states fund technological advances is exactly by promising to buy the results. This was one of the most important things in early IT - the fact that the US army was buying it at all. If the companies in that space would have had to live by selling their tech on the free m…

Guaranteed wealthy clients and investors exist in free markets too. That doesn’t make them Tech creators, that merit is still reserved to the startup itself.

Both Moderna and BioNTech were funded and working on the mRNA technology before governments came with large orders for the vaccines.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#339

Post by touisteur »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #256
touisteur wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not every R&D project can or should lead to a commercial product right away. I work in a big corp and sometimes the tech you invested in, even if the PoC was great and all successful, doesn't fit in any final product because of thousands of other constraints. But I also see lots of small 'mindshare' changes thanks to those 'it can be done' projects. The important steps seem to be to first unlock the first TRLs, t…

'TRL' ?

Sorry, jargon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level

Funny thing, the wiki page explicitly cites horizon2020 (which one of the GPs criticized): "The European Commission advised EU-funded research and innovation projects to adopt the scale in 2010.[1] TRLs were consequently used in 2014 in the EU Horizon 2020 program. In 2013, the TRL scale was further canonized by the ISO 16290:2013 standard.[1] A comprehensive approach and discussion of TRLs has been published by the European Association of Research and Technology Organisations (EARTO).[3] Extensive criticism of the adoption of TRL scale by the European Union was published in The Innovation Journal, stating that the "concreteness and sophistication of the TRL scale gradually diminished as its usage spread outside its original context (space programs)"."

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#340

Post by TinkersW »

Daho0n wrote: post #316
blibble wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well I can certainly say one thing, thanks to EU regulation I don't have to eat chlorinated chicken, the air is clean well, if you completely ignore that the EU pushed diesel over petrol, to protect its domestic industries exactly the same as the chicken thing neither are to protect your health, that's just a secondary effect that the EU uses for PR

Comparing chlorinated chicken to diesel is just insane.

I visited the UK and the first thing I noticed when I was walking around the cities and towns as how much they stunk of diesel. Air quality made even the worst of US cities look good..
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