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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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341–350 of 496 posts

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#341
China is bound to win in the long run, given the resources, captive market and most importantly competitive/cost of talent.

Japan, US, India and possibly some EU countries are partnering today to build an alternative to Huawei in 5G. This is coming 10 years late.

We might be repeating the same mistake but now in semiconductors.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not the brilliant engineers you imagine are going to run it. I have no doubts brilliant European engineers are going to work on the hard problems of shipping a next gen chip process and design... In America! What the EU should do is earmark some of that money to be directly paid as engineering salaries. Of course they won't: that would reduce the piece of the pie of all the non-technical managers and bureaucrats!

> I have no doubts brilliant European engineers are going to work on the hard problems of shipping a next gen chip process and design... In America! Exactly. The salaries in EU are pitiful.

Tech salaries in the US are not sustainable. We don't have enough planets to run economies and waste natural resources at that velocity.

Well, probably the same is true for the "pitiful" salaries in the EU. Just to a lesser degree.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#343
post #322
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But isn't this typical to R&D ? that only 1 of N projects gets used for commercial purposes ? The OP forgot to mention that one of the goals in the Horizon2020 projects is to provide incentives to create pan-european collaborations involving industrial, academic, and institutional organizations. In short, they are aimed to bridge the gap between academia and industry, and also create synergies between multiple orga…

As someone who came from academia, now runs a commercial company, and having participated in several large consortia projects (including Horizon 2020), I find your perspective… charming. I hope you never get to experience how the sausage is made. And where you taxes really go.

I agree it's very difficult to run large-scale research projects with consortia, etc. And even worse at EU scale with public money. I'm not sure whether there's a better way to balance the admin-load against all the scamming, or to avoid 'favoring' one nation's industry or other. When you do something on processors, you'll probably have to keep the door open to all big & small European actors, right? I feel all the administrative overload is a way to avoid all kinds of political problems.

Yes, Europeans complain about bureaucracy from the EU and here about the ERC, but the moment someone comes with more 'pragmatic' processes, either you see some 10+MEUR-level abuse quite quickly, or you get some blast about bad management of the tax payers money, and calls for more oversight.

I don't have a solution, and without a united EU military/defense budget I don't see anything DARPA-like emerging. And it seems only European military budgets (still sovereign) and regional budgets (regionalism being, to me, the biggest flaw in the modern EU vision) seem spent on 'low admin we trust you let's try this just convince this panel of scientists and admins' funding. While I think it's great for labs/research funding, for product derisking and creating competitive edges for the local industry, and for SMEs and overall high tech employment, you're not going to create a semiconductor industry like this.

I've seen the results of several ERC consortia projects and am sometimes impressed with what EU-based research (academics+smb+large groups) can do with so little money (on each subject) and, yes, so much admin overhead.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#344
post #147
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contributed to a couple of projects that received money from FP7 (sort of the previous iteration of Horizon 2020). In a certain sense, the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money. Software (and hardware) projects were completed, and nothing was ever done with them. We produced over 20k pages worth of paperwork (which was all mandatory if we wanted to get the money), which I'm guessing no one ever read. Don't…

> I contributed to a couple of projects that received money from FP7 (sort of the previous iteration of Horizon 2020). In a certain sense, the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money. I guess your mileage does indeed vary. I contributed to a subproject of a major FP7 research program, which counted with the collaboration of a major industrial manufacturing company, a state research institute, and a couple of un…

I'm guessing the state research institute got some funding and visibility ('dear tax payer or high-level admin that cares about public image of state research, what you paid for - our research on topic X - for Y years is now being used in industry, see?') and that's what makes/helps them run so they probably also got some things out of this.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#345
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is in between. Was USSR full of internal problems? Yes. Did USA and allies want USSR destroyed and actively work on? Also yes. Saying that Cold War and the arms race had absolutely no role in USSR collapse is either a blatant lie or incompetence.

Exactly. Had the west not interfered, the USSR would recover from the 80s crisis. Instead, they took advantage of its shortcomings and managed to break up the union: Gorbachev is considered by many Russians a traitor, but he was not the only western investment in toppling the Soviet Union. Let's remind that full-on opening of the market was not what the west promised, but it's what they pushed for once the reforms pa…

I think you miss a crucial fact here - large part of Soviet block was incorporated by force and wanted to get rid of their influence as fast as possible. Nobody misses USRR here in Poland.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#346

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

> TWINSCAN NXE:3400C is probably the most expensive machine in the world. Unfortunately no. A number of pieces of military hardware produced in bigger numbers will leave even that pricetag in the dust.

Reminds me of when I saw the customs declaration they had to make for the Troll oil platform[1]. It was "a thing" made here in the country, and it was being transported out of the country, so of course they had to customs declare it...

The declaration essentially said "one oil platform, unpackaged".

There was a suitable tariff code for it, but the value of it was so great the electronic customs declaration system couldn't handle all the digits.

Instead they had to write the value as a free-text comment.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_A_platform

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#347
post #322
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But isn't this typical to R&D ? that only 1 of N projects gets used for commercial purposes ? The OP forgot to mention that one of the goals in the Horizon2020 projects is to provide incentives to create pan-european collaborations involving industrial, academic, and institutional organizations. In short, they are aimed to bridge the gap between academia and industry, and also create synergies between multiple orga…

As someone who came from academia, now runs a commercial company, and having participated in several large consortia projects (including Horizon 2020), I find your perspective… charming. I hope you never get to experience how the sausage is made. And where you taxes really go.

> I hope you never get to experience how the sausage is made.

I appreciate your arrogance, but as you might notice by reading my comment I already have more than enough experience making said sausage. Thus your complete lack of arguments, which you tried to hide with snide remarks and an unimpressive attempt to appeal to authority, were dully noted.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#348
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU has ASML, NXP, Infineon, maybe STM (not sure) and a ton of little shops, but all of them are far away from the major players. They don't need to become major players for this program to be a major success. Both India's and China's push for a native self-sufficient industrial capabilities have been a huge success in spite of not delivering a cutting edge processor. Moreover, AMD showed that right now the key…

"Sovereignty" is an important concept that dropped out of American discourse in the 1990s. No self-respecting country relies on foreign cryptography to protect its diplomatic communications. Similarly, no self-respecting country in 2030 will rely entirely on foreign integrated circuits. FPGAs will play an important role for small countries, but large groups like EU can afford to go big.

> No self-respecting country relies on foreign cryptography to protect its diplomatic communications.

I am fairly certain most of the western world relies on a Belgian cipher called Rijndael to encrypt all/the majority of its diplomatic communications.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this comment.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU treats this as a strategic capability and not commercial, the spending is much less of a consideration. The advantage that the EU has is in fact ASML. No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0] The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with…

> The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with TSMC to build a foundry in the EU that produces at the node they want to intercept (2 nm?). that's hardly in Taiwan's geopolitical interest. perhaps if the EU made some serious political concessions to Taiwan.

Underrated comment! If eu has a viable alternative to tsmc, incentive to protect Taiwan diminishes greatly. Then again, Why would the eu care to fight China? EU does not seem interested in using its power to further democracy elsewhere (or even within Europe.... )

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#350
post #221
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like those EU CERN bureaucrats funding Tim Berners-Lee, what were they thinking

No, just like the EU search engine, remember that one?

No, what was it called?
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