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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#241

Post by jlokier »

Nokinside wrote: post #178
kasperni wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The previous top model NXE:3400B, "weighs 180 tons and needs 20 trucks or three fully loaded Boeing 747s for shipment. The price tag is $120 million." [1] [1] https://www.laserfocusworld.com/blogs/article/14039015/how-d... .

Most of that is packaging, seriously. The purity requirements and vibrational limits for those parts are very high. ASML has plans to get into sub 1nm level. 2nm and 1.5 nm is already in the pipeline. The technology high-NA EUV (high Numerical Aperture Extreme Ultraviolet) becomes just insane. Mirror manufacturing process requires atomic scale corrections and the whole metrology is moved into vacuum. The limit for ma…

> The measurement accuracy is comparable or exeeding [..] gravitational-wave astronomy

A nitpick: You are greatly underestimating the precision in gravitational-wave astronomy.

ASML's atomic scale corrections are approximately one billion times larger than the fraction-of-a-proton's width displacements measured by LIGO.

From https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts:

> At its most sensitive state, LIGO will be able to detect a change in distance between its mirrors 1/10,000th the width of a proton! This is equivalent to measuring the distance to the nearest star (some 4.2 light years away) to an accuracy smaller than the width of a human hair.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#242

Post by coolgod »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #199
Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

If the EU treats this as a strategic capability and not commercial, the spending is much less of a consideration. The advantage that the EU has is in fact ASML. No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0] The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with…

> No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0]

Those are some huge claims, which could have previously been said for many currently outdated technologies.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#243

Post by adventured »

jorvi wrote: post #234
GregarianChild wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

aerospace, energy, semiconductors, telecom, drugs/biotech The EU lost leadership in all of them! (And some others!)

> aerospace Airbus is absolutely crushing Boeing in terms of quality. Granted, we are woefully behind on the 'space' part of aerospace. > energy CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU. We are world leaders in wind energy. > telecom Except for everyone in the West scrambling to replace Huawei with Ericsson tech. > drugs / biotech BioNtech made the first breakthrough on a COVID vaccine. The EU has many…

> CERN is anchored to the EU. ITER is anchored to the EU.

Anchored, yeah sure. So you're listing something that isn't in the EU, which is revealing. ITER is entirely irrelevant. It's a pork project that won't result in much. The biggest breakthroughs in fusion will derive from smaller projects, not giant slow-moving projects like ITER. The next 20-30 years of energy generation is wind, natural gas, oil, solar, some hydrogen and nuclear (and primarily only China is brave enough to build that). Fusion will make zero contribution in that time.

> BioNtech made the first breakthrough on a COVID vaccine.

Moderna was just as well positioned as BioNtech, you're more than reaching. Russia and China also have apparently successful vaccines being deployed.

> The EU has many issues, but losing leadership in the sectors you mentioned is not one of them.

That's true in the sense that the EU never had leadership in most fields to begin with.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#244

Post by ClumsyPilot »

nickpp wrote: post #224
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remind me how is that WeWork and Theranos investment going?

Plenty of startups crash and burn. It comes with the territory. What is your point?

No-no, this is not examples of ordinary wastefullness and 'crash', these were outright fraud.

The exact same thing the OP accuses government grants of perpetuating.

Your post is a perfect example that with startups that's just accepted and glossed over.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#245

Post by mrep »

joejerryronnie wrote: post #213
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what?

Do aircraft carriers count in this context? They’re reasonably expensive to produce.

Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carriers are being built at 13 billion a piece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford-class_aircraft_...

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#246

Post by sigstoat »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #199
Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

If the EU treats this as a strategic capability and not commercial, the spending is much less of a consideration. The advantage that the EU has is in fact ASML. No company can make the 5nm litho systems today, and catching up with the decades of R&D they've invested is not feasible. They are the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet. [0] The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with…

> The strategy that can work is for the EU to partner with TSMC to build a foundry in the EU that produces at the node they want to intercept (2 nm?).

that's hardly in Taiwan's geopolitical interest. perhaps if the EU made some serious political concessions to Taiwan.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#247

Post by nickpp »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #244
nickpp wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of startups crash and burn. It comes with the territory. What is your point?

No-no, this is not examples of ordinary wastefullness and 'crash', these were outright fraud. The exact same thing the OP accuses government grants of perpetuating. Your post is a perfect example that with startups that's just accepted and glossed over.

Well maybe because in government grants waste and fraud are the rule, while in private startups they are the exception.

And it is the investors problem when a startup fails, and they are aware of it. But with governments, it is OUR money squandered away by politicians and their friends.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#248

Post by adventured »

credit_guy wrote: post #140

So, first thing when it comes to big dollar (or in this case Euro) numbers: some of these funds will be loans, not grants. In this case the split will be about 50-50. Second, this is not new money, this is part of recovery funds already allocated in July 2020 for combating the economic recession created by the Coronavirus [1]. These funds were already earmarked for environmental and digital initiatives. This declarat…

> In the US neither the original CARES act ($1.4 TN) passed in March, nor the new stimulus bill ($0.9 TN) has any funds dedicated to cutting edge industries.

That's because the US largely doesn't have to do that. The reason the US has a couple hundred major technology companies and Europe doesn't is due to its far superior venture capital market, which Europe almost entirely lacks by relative scale and so it has to try to make up for it with government money (which has been a repeated approach in Europe going back decades now, it hasn't worked well).

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#249

Post by jlokier »

rusk wrote: post #164
alexhutcheson wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://nvidianews.nvidia.com/news/nvidia-to-acquire-arm-for...

Has the UK even got a trade deal with the US yet?

No it hasn't, and the type of deal it is going to get looks likely to be different under Biden than under Trump. I think your point is relevant regarding ARM-Nvidia, as semiconductor technology has tended to be the subject of trade barriers, and is seen as a strategic national asset.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#250

Post by BlueTemplar »

Nokinside wrote: post #178
kasperni wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The previous top model NXE:3400B, "weighs 180 tons and needs 20 trucks or three fully loaded Boeing 747s for shipment. The price tag is $120 million." [1] [1] https://www.laserfocusworld.com/blogs/article/14039015/how-d... .

Most of that is packaging, seriously. The purity requirements and vibrational limits for those parts are very high. ASML has plans to get into sub 1nm level. 2nm and 1.5 nm is already in the pipeline. The technology high-NA EUV (high Numerical Aperture Extreme Ultraviolet) becomes just insane. Mirror manufacturing process requires atomic scale corrections and the whole metrology is moved into vacuum. The limit for ma…

I was wondering how much farther down they could theoretically go : Typical Si-Si bond length is actually only 0.24 nm !
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