EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#81

Post by microtonal » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #41

simias wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like we're starting from scratch though, we already have companies and people with ample experience in this field. Not to say that it's not a huge bar to clear or that I don't expect massive delays but I think it's a good thing overall.

I mean until recently ARM was based in an EU country.

And there are still a lot of relevant European companies. ASML, STMicroelectronics (which is Swiss, but is spread across many EU countries as well), NXP, Infineon, Bosch (sensors & semiconductors), etc.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#82

Post by WanderPanda » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

I might have looked positively at this if the bureaucrats would have actual skin in the game and would be judged by the outcome in 5-10 years. But in the likely case that this will fail and most of the money will be drained through lobbyism etc., nobody will talk about it and they will come up with the next thing they can throw money at to come across as being super innovative.

Disclaimer: I used to work at a company that was particularly good in draining these kind of funds without delivering useful outputs.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#83

Post by imtringued » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #34

rapsey wrote: post #5

Just a giveaway to the best politically connected companies. Like all such EU initiatives.

To me it looks more like they're trying to get more technological independence. Right now they're at the mercy of the US and China in many areas and as the result are target to political pressure. Reducing one's dependency does not hurt.

It doesn't hurt but it's not an economic miracle either, it's a luxury if it isn't self sustaining.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#84

Post by iagovar » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #75

skrebbel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips. As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer. I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next App…

>I think much of the relevant chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. The larger ARM Cortex cores are still designed to a large degree in Southern France.

Yeah but that's ARM IP though. There's a window of opportunity with RISC V, but something tells me that the fact it's open source rubs against some people.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#85

Post by _ph_ » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

Good news. Yes, as with all government money, there is some pork barreling involved, but there is a long history of such government initiatives laying the starting seed for high tech industry development. It means money is invested in Europe tied to a certain purpose. Giving talented engineers a job perspective and companies a field in which they can invest into.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#86

Post by petra » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

elric wrote: post #68

rapsey wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horizon2020 for instance

I contributed to a couple of projects that received money from FP7 (sort of the previous iteration of Horizon 2020). In a certain sense, the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money. Software (and hardware) projects were completed, and nothing was ever done with them. We produced over 20k pages worth of paperwork (which was all mandatory if we wanted to get the money), which I'm guessing no one ever read. Don't…

But isn't this typical to R&D ? that only 1 of N projects gets used for commercial purposes ?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#87

Post by QuesnayJr » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #43

bayindirh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But of course EU will just waste the money as always. As someone working in HPC and EU projects related to this subject, I don't think they'll waste it. Current HPC and processor push is very real now.

EU’s decreasing GDP share in the world shows that EU is wasting lots of money by trying to pick winners. Just having low tax for small tech companies like in Shanghai would incentivize people to work on new great ideas, but I don’t see it happening.

The EU spends less time picking winners than countries did back in the pre-EU days. If you take that evidence at face value, it suggests that the EU isn't trying to pick enough winners.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#88

Post by cinquemb » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #51

yulaow wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost any "federal government" branch in any national or transnational entity works that way. They still get results good enough to push technology forward by encouraging parallel private investments. I mean the whole USA tech sector was basically bootstrapped by federal money/grants/investments given in no different way of what EU is doing right now.

And even earlier, in chemical and advanced manufacturing space - just how many of the well-known US companies started as small shops that got their hands on government grants during WWII?

> … government grants during WWII

Seems like we're missing some "proper" motivation/focus/constraints now like war on this scale can provide… not just the EU, but this kind of diktat-innovation is increasingly more present everywhere…

Probably goes hand in hand with the ever present bailout olympics for those deemed TBTF…

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#89

Post by ginko » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

iagovar wrote: post #84

ginko wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think much of the relevant chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. The larger ARM Cortex cores are still designed to a large degree in Southern France.

Yeah but that's ARM IP though. There's a window of opportunity with RISC V, but something tells me that the fact it's open source rubs against some people.

>Yeah but that's ARM IP though.

How does this matter? Do you think ARM won't license their IP to European chip makers?

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#90

Post by kasperni » Fri, Jan 01, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #35

EU has the tech. ASML is #2 company in EURO STOXX 50 index with 5.69% weight. ASML is the world's largest photolithography systems manufacturer and the only one producing extreme ultraviolet lithography machines. These EUV scanners are expensive as hell. Last years model costs $120 million per piece and you need 10-15 of them for TSMC gigafactory. TWINSCAN NXE:3400C (7 and 5 nm nodes, >170 wafers per hour) is probabl…

The previous top model NXE:3400B, "weighs 180 tons and needs 20 trucks or three fully loaded Boeing 747s for shipment. The price tag is $120 million." [1]

[1] https://www.laserfocusworld.com/blogs/article/14039015/how-d....