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EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#151

Post by stevespang »

Nokinside wrote: post #103
skrebbel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML is impressive for sure, but having the litho doesn't mean you can make good chips. As a mediocre analogy, you don't expect to be able to write good novels because you got your hands on a printer. I think much of the relevant general-purpose chip design knowledge we had (ARM) left the EU this morning. I don't yet see any other chip company (eg NXP etc) suddenly be the next Intel or AMD yet (let alone the next App…

ARM IP, even full architectural license, is relatively small percentage of the cost of a semiconductor. Know-how for fables microarchitecture designs is widely distributed. Most fabless work goes to specialized asics. It's the inability for SMIC to obtain EUV lithography equipment for their sub-7nm process technologies from ASML that prevents China from getting into high-end semiconductors, not the domestic microarch…

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Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#152

Post by rualca »

petra wrote: post #86
elric wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contributed to a couple of projects that received money from FP7 (sort of the previous iteration of Horizon 2020). In a certain sense, the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money. Software (and hardware) projects were completed, and nothing was ever done with them. We produced over 20k pages worth of paperwork (which was all mandatory if we wanted to get the money), which I'm guessing no one ever read. Don't…

But isn't this typical to R&D ? that only 1 of N projects gets used for commercial purposes ?

> But isn't this typical to R&D ? that only 1 of N projects gets used for commercial purposes ?

The OP forgot to mention that one of the goals in the Horizon2020 projects is to provide incentives to create pan-european collaborations involving industrial, academic, and institutional organizations.

In short, they are aimed to bridge the gap between academia and industry, and also create synergies between multiple organizations across Europe.

For example, some programs require applicants to partner with research institutions and industrial companies of significant and arbitrary size to be able to even submit a proposal.

Thus, it's disingenuous to evaluate the success of these programs in terms of commercial products being developed out of these programs. The political goals of developing collaborations between member-states is far more important than delivering a gadget or a trinket.

Similarly, we have the Erasmus program that enable higher-education students to spend a year in a school from a member state somewhere in Europe. It's disingenuous to assume the goal of the Erasmus program is solely academic.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#153

Post by cinquemb »

wongarsu wrote: post #49
zpeti wrote: post #10

It’s almost become normal now that bureaucrats get to decide which social group to spend money on, or which region to renovate buildings in, but the arrogance of thinking you can spend your way to the most cutting edge of current technology is just the next level of bureaucratic arrogance.

The US recently spent their way into a cutting edge private space launch provider industry, and that seems like a roaring success. What makes you think it doesn't work?

Seem's like though we're still stuck in the Goddard age and most of the resources go towards pursuing such techniques (with a few private orgs that have the lions share of support with public funds that even go towards such ends) of getting into LEO as if there couldn't possibly be any other way worth pursing… how long will we be stuck optimizing Goddard paperclips above all else?

It's also quite funny considering that Goddard himself had to do a lot of work alone, fight public opinion and face the lack of support from the American government, military and academia, all failing to understand the value of the rocket to study the atmosphere and near space, and for military applications, over I'm sure other public-private endeavors that had the blessing at the time (perhaps all the atomic research that provided more strategic benefits?)

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#154

Post by baybal2 »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #150
baybal2 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TWINSCAN NXE:3400C is probably the most expensive machine in the world. Unfortunately no. A number of pieces of military hardware produced in bigger numbers will leave even that pricetag in the dust.

Like what?

Fighter jets, bombers, few missile systems, air defence systems, subs, and surface military ships... the list would be long.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#155

Post by tsimionescu »

nickpp wrote: post #135
tsimionescu wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is always pushed by states, not small companies. Small companies can figure out how to market and reduce costs, but have never successfully created new, advanced technology.

Saying this while waiting for the new savior vaccine with a brand new mRNA technology pushed by two startups: Moderna & BioNTech is just... funny.

No, that's a great example of what I'm saying. The vaccine is payed for by states - they had a 100% guaranteed worldwide market. Whether they invested their own money (like BioNTech) or were explicitly financed by a state (like Moderna and Pfizer), the money for that research will ultimately be payed almost entirely by the state.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#156

Post by nickpp »

tsimionescu wrote: post #155
nickpp wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying this while waiting for the new savior vaccine with a brand new mRNA technology pushed by two startups: Moderna & BioNTech is just... funny.

No, that's a great example of what I'm saying. The vaccine is payed for by states - they had a 100% guaranteed worldwide market. Whether they invested their own money (like BioNTech) or were explicitly financed by a state (like Moderna and Pfizer), the money for that research will ultimately be payed almost entirely by the state.

No. States are simply clients, buyers of the end-product. Investors included VCs and states. But the Tech was built by the startups.

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#157

Post by ClumsyPilot »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #150
baybal2 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TWINSCAN NXE:3400C is probably the most expensive machine in the world. Unfortunately no. A number of pieces of military hardware produced in bigger numbers will leave even that pricetag in the dust.

Like what?

B2 spirit costs more than its weight in gold, clocking in at close to a billion

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#158

Post by monkeydust »

m4rtink wrote: post #101
ginko wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>however I believe that the semiconductor manufacturing market is already heavily saturated Is it? It seems to be headed for a TSMC monopoly as far as I can see.

Not to mention the current supply issues for gaming console chips and GPUs - unless it's a very temporary blip it looks like insufficient production of the most cutting edge chips & all that on top of the TSMC monopoly.

Indeed. More on that here if your interested

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25466561

Re: EU Signs €145B Declaration to Develop Next Gen Processors and 2nm Technology

#159

Post by shi314 »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #150
baybal2 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TWINSCAN NXE:3400C is probably the most expensive machine in the world. Unfortunately no. A number of pieces of military hardware produced in bigger numbers will leave even that pricetag in the dust.

Like what?

There are plenty aircraft models like B-2 Spirit, F-22 Raptor etc. that cost above $200 million.
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