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USDS Digital Services Playbook

playbook.cio.gov

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Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#91

Post by PopeDotNinja »

jolux wrote: post #64
PopeDotNinja wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually try applying? I think they are looking for candidness and some distance between you & the chronic. If you say you used to smoke, but quit two years ago and don’t miss it at all, that’s different than wearing a 420BlazeIt t-shirt to the interview and saying you haven’t smoked in almost an hour.

I haven't tried applying, no. I did some research into it and it seemed dicey. I also have friends with clearance who say it's a complete tossup depending on who you talk to.

If you had a 50/50 chance, would you go for it? I guess your answer shows how much you really want it. No shame I’m not wanting it THAT bad.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#92

Post by throwafed98 »

wslack wrote: post #87
throwafed98 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contractors can also be part of the problem. Very few contracting firms with access to blanket purchase agreements are willing to dump proprietary tech—as it’s their cashcow. For example, Oracle is huge in the federal gov, and Oracle DBAs are billed at a premium over a dev who can just make Postgres work. Worse, Oracle isn’t the problem rather the problem is some legacy tech or middleware no one has ever heard of tha…

I've also heard of contractors selling nearly identical software to multiple agencies and charging each the full price of development (one reason open source has faced opposition), and sometimes decent excel macros can solve the actual problem. You're totally right that if the incentives don't change, the choices made by execs won't change either. For example, a contracting officer I've met saved their agency a billi…

The Playbook is helpful. So is the DoD’s Detecting Agile BS. More publish references similar to these that can be presented to management. Another Avenue would be to engage GAO and OMB in order for their reports to align with above. Thank you!

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#93

Post by jolux »

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #91
jolux wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't tried applying, no. I did some research into it and it seemed dicey. I also have friends with clearance who say it's a complete tossup depending on who you talk to.

If you had a 50/50 chance, would you go for it? I guess your answer shows how much you really want it. No shame I’m not wanting it THAT bad.

It seemed less than 50/50 from discussing it with friends. I don’t know, maybe it’s still worth a shot.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#94

Post by sco1 »

eddietejeda wrote: post #60
jolux wrote: post #19

I think the biggest problem any US government agency has (federal or state) in producing services that leverage modern technology is that they cannot afford to pay people market rates. We have a mentality in the US that government cannot do anything right, but it seems of late (last 40 years or so) that we are kneecapping government's ability to execute and then complaining about it when it can't and making pronounce…

While mostly true, let’s put this into perspective: A GS-15 in a metro area like New York, DC, and San Francisco, with experience, can get over $170. Throw in performance bonus and matching contributions, and total compensation is $180k+. That does not compare with the high end of the private sector, but that’s reasonable for a lot of people, even at tech companies. You can estimate here: https://www.federalpay.org/g…

> A GS-15 in a metro area like New York, DC, and San Francisco, with experience, can get over $170.

Agencies like USDS, 18F, etc. who are hiring at this level are atypical, and have to do so in order to attract talent away from private sector. GS-13+ slots are typically senior leadership positions and not entry level for anyone unless they have a PhD.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#95

Post by ajcp »

0kl wrote: post #34
ajcp wrote: post #2

While this is all well and good it feels like a slick "thought leadership" campaign that provides little in the way of actual solutions to the issues USG orgs face when building/providing digital services. The challenge is not the "approach", but rather a system that constrains the ability to even begin that approach. I find #7 especially hollow: > We need talented people working in government who have experience cre…

https://smeqa.usds.gov/ We do work on hiring as well

Very cool, thank you for the information!

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#96

Post by adbachman »

bladegash wrote: post #41
adbachman wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how you've heard about USCIS' work / style? I'm new to the system, so this is the only one I know (wrote about joining here: https://twitter.com/abachman/status/1217795232449859585 ), but I'm currently on a team of 6, all feds: 1 designer, 1 product mgr, 3 engineers and I'd say we're fairly to extremely self-directed. User-research based product development, pair programming, short iterations, deploying d…

Other than previous work experience at DHS, bidding USCIS solicitations was the biggest difference I had observed with USCIS/way I became familiar with their practices. They’re pretty unique/developed with both their acquisition and DevOps practices. It kind of sucks being on the bidding end, as their tech challenges cost a ton on top of the normal costs with a proposal. But I can understand why they do it and from a…

Ah! This is interesting info and helpful, thanks!

I was on the cusp of attending some cross organization "for feds" tech meetups back in March, but... :| I'll keep on the lookout.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#97

Post by ajcp »

randmeerkat wrote: post #89
kelnos wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big problem with hiring is just USG pay scales. Even the top pay grades come in at less than what an average (or even less than average) developer can make in industry. Much less if you also consider equity comp. Sure, there are some people who will see working for USDS or 18F as a call to serve their country, and will accept a pay cut in order to do that, but I imagine that's a pretty small slice of the pie. Beyon…

What would be nice is if these government jobs had training. The military can take someone from the street and make them a specialist in something. If USDS could take someone and make them into what they needed, the lower salary might be better justified.

I could not agree more. If the USG wants to provide competent digital services to it's customer/shareholder then it might make more sense to get rid of the Digital Service in the WH and rather expand and go all in on 18F, where it provides a whole career progression from basic training on up through SES.

I feel the absence of job training upon hiring is also why there is no concept of "company men" after the Boomer Generation; companies stopped investing in the employees they wanted and started treating them like pre-packaged commodity.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#98

Post by ajcp »

wslack wrote: post #71
ajcp wrote: post #2

While this is all well and good it feels like a slick "thought leadership" campaign that provides little in the way of actual solutions to the issues USG orgs face when building/providing digital services. The challenge is not the "approach", but rather a system that constrains the ability to even begin that approach. I find #7 especially hollow: > We need talented people working in government who have experience cre…

This is hard for practical reasons. The civil service needs to be a place where everyone can get a job without knowing someone inside, so a lot of best practices in the private sector (referral-based hiring) don't easily translate. It's akin to the Postal Service visiting everyone's mailbox each day - not efficient, but important. THAT SAID, there are massive improvements that can happen in hiring - if agencies have…

I agree, this is a really tough nut to crack without completely overhauling the hiring system and making some hard decisions. USAJobs was a really good-faith effort, but it's not it.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#99

Post by randmeerkat »

ajcp wrote: post #97
randmeerkat wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be nice is if these government jobs had training. The military can take someone from the street and make them a specialist in something. If USDS could take someone and make them into what they needed, the lower salary might be better justified.

I could not agree more. If the USG wants to provide competent digital services to it's customer/shareholder then it might make more sense to get rid of the Digital Service in the WH and rather expand and go all in on 18F, where it provides a whole career progression from basic training on up through SES. I feel the absence of job training upon hiring is also why there is no concept of "company men" after the Boomer G…

I didn’t realize 18F has a training program. That’s awesome.

I agree with your frustrations about training in general too. I wish companies provided that _and_ provided real career progression goals. Instead it’s learn the tech for your job after work and some vague one page sheet from HR about what the next level is, which really comes down to a manager’s opinion more than anything really measurable.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#100

Post by dodobirdlord »

wslack wrote: post #72
zippy5 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s one thing to pay a highly competent person 6 figures. It’s an entirely different thing if you can’t fire them. I’m not saying that the government doesn’t need more competent people but it’s not going to work if there’s a bigger carrot and no stick.

Part of a solution for that are term-limited civil service jobs - that keeps a rotation of talent and low performers can't stay forever. That said, you raise an important problem - how do you manage poor performers without allowing a bad-faith political official to fire people unfairly?

Provide clear mandates and then structurally separate organizations that should exist indefinitely from most interference by elected officials. Some of the most effective institutions of the US Government are the ones that were deliberately structured to be self-organizing, the military, the federal reserve system, and (until recently) the postal service.
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