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USDS Digital Services Playbook

playbook.cio.gov

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Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#81

Post by minhazm »

dimmke wrote: post #54
jolux wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of the problems with the contracting process. My experience with salary is at the state level where things are much more stark, but I also don't think that federal salaries are comparable with FAANG, particularly Google. Most at 18F are at GS-15, right?

Fair point about state/local. My statement about FAANG was based on some napkin math I did with regard to published rates for certain labor categories by some big contracting companies on some vehicles they were a part of. But even doing a quick comparison, levels.fyi estimates about $160 - 180k cash compensation for new hires for FAANG. GS-15 Step 3 in DC is 150k. Plus excellent government benefits. It's spitting di…

USDS isn’t going to hire a new grad at GS-15. Also government benefits are not as good as FAANG benefits.

Also GS-15 is the absolute max. 2 yrs at FAANG and your comp will be closed to 220-250k, which is already passed the absolute max you can get paid on the government pay scale.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#82

Post by gbh444g »

eddietejeda wrote: post #60
jolux wrote: post #19

I think the biggest problem any US government agency has (federal or state) in producing services that leverage modern technology is that they cannot afford to pay people market rates. We have a mentality in the US that government cannot do anything right, but it seems of late (last 40 years or so) that we are kneecapping government's ability to execute and then complaining about it when it can't and making pronounce…

While mostly true, let’s put this into perspective: A GS-15 in a metro area like New York, DC, and San Francisco, with experience, can get over $170. Throw in performance bonus and matching contributions, and total compensation is $180k+. That does not compare with the high end of the private sector, but that’s reasonable for a lot of people, even at tech companies. You can estimate here: https://www.federalpay.org/g…

There's also the "executive schedule" [1] for management, but it doesn't pay much better: $220K for the highest paid ES-1, and a PhD is a requirement. In fact, the president of the US makes only $400K.

[1] https://www.federalpay.org/ses/2020

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#83

Post by dimmke »

minhazm wrote: post #81
dimmke wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point about state/local. My statement about FAANG was based on some napkin math I did with regard to published rates for certain labor categories by some big contracting companies on some vehicles they were a part of. But even doing a quick comparison, levels.fyi estimates about $160 - 180k cash compensation for new hires for FAANG. GS-15 Step 3 in DC is 150k. Plus excellent government benefits. It's spitting di…

USDS isn’t going to hire a new grad at GS-15. Also government benefits are not as good as FAANG benefits. Also GS-15 is the absolute max. 2 yrs at FAANG and your comp will be closed to 220-250k, which is already passed the absolute max you can get paid on the government pay scale.

I wasn’t really talking about direct government roles when I made that comment. I was more talking about what the government shells out to contractors for programming jobs which as many have pointed out is the vast majority of programmers that get hired to do work for the government.

And admittedly, it is a little hyperbolic. I don’t have actual data to directly back it up beyond some research I did earlier this year. But FAANG really represents the most you could get paid as a software engineer and it’s pretty clear to me that these salaries are at least average/middle of the road. There isn’t some widespread low pay issue for software engineers doing this kind of work.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#84

Post by gbh444g »

dimmke wrote: post #54
jolux wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of the problems with the contracting process. My experience with salary is at the state level where things are much more stark, but I also don't think that federal salaries are comparable with FAANG, particularly Google. Most at 18F are at GS-15, right?

Fair point about state/local. My statement about FAANG was based on some napkin math I did with regard to published rates for certain labor categories by some big contracting companies on some vehicles they were a part of. But even doing a quick comparison, levels.fyi estimates about $160 - 180k cash compensation for new hires for FAANG. GS-15 Step 3 in DC is 150k. Plus excellent government benefits. It's spitting di…

FANG pays 450-550 to someone with 10 yoe. GS-15, on the other hand, requires a PhD and even if it's reachable within 10 years, pays only 180.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#85

Post by paulmd »

jolux wrote: post #59
paulmd wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and the "total compensation" is no longer good either. "The pay sucks but you get great benefits" meme is no longer true of most state/federal government jobs, those benefits have been drastically shaved down over the last 30 years. The other major recruiting problem is marijuana prohibition. Government has a lot of problems retaining high-skill IT people because a huge number of computer-touchers smoke. iirc FB…

In particular you can't get any kind of security clearance if you have any history of cannabis usage, as far as I know. I wanted to enlist in the military a few years ago but unfortunately my history with weed means I'm more or less excluded, I think.

My understanding is those are the rules for automatic approval of a clearance and if you respond with drug use then you will be initially denied and then they will take a look at your specific circumstance.

Marijuana usage is so pervasive that they basically can't exclude anyone who's ever used it, instead they want to see that it's been at least a year (preferably more) since you've used it and you will probably get approved. "Harder" drugs they are more strict on.

If you just smoked pot in college no worries, you'll be fine.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#86

Post by acdha »

gbh444g wrote: post #84
dimmke wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point about state/local. My statement about FAANG was based on some napkin math I did with regard to published rates for certain labor categories by some big contracting companies on some vehicles they were a part of. But even doing a quick comparison, levels.fyi estimates about $160 - 180k cash compensation for new hires for FAANG. GS-15 Step 3 in DC is 150k. Plus excellent government benefits. It's spitting di…

FANG pays 450-550 to someone with 10 yoe. GS-15, on the other hand, requires a PhD and even if it's reachable within 10 years, pays only 180.

A GS-15 doesn’t require a PhD but it definitely requires considerable experience.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#87

Post by wslack »

throwafed98 wrote: post #78
shanear wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These plays can work. Why? Because USDS employees are government employees with escalation paths all the way up to the very top which gives them a lot of power to break down bureaucratic barriers to modern software development that government contractors & consultants would have no chance of doing. They then can bring in contractors to work in the relatively modern shell that they've created. For example, here's a pr…

Contractors can also be part of the problem. Very few contracting firms with access to blanket purchase agreements are willing to dump proprietary tech—as it’s their cashcow. For example, Oracle is huge in the federal gov, and Oracle DBAs are billed at a premium over a dev who can just make Postgres work. Worse, Oracle isn’t the problem rather the problem is some legacy tech or middleware no one has ever heard of tha…

I've also heard of contractors selling nearly identical software to multiple agencies and charging each the full price of development (one reason open source has faced opposition), and sometimes decent excel macros can solve the actual problem.

You're totally right that if the incentives don't change, the choices made by execs won't change either. For example, a contracting officer I've met saved their agency a billion dollars by not continuing a failing contract, and was punished (to the point of leaving that agency) because that wasn't what the incentives supported.

How can USDS/18F be helpful to you and others in your position? The messages you list at the end are all true.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#89

Post by randmeerkat »

kelnos wrote: post #8
ajcp wrote: post #2

While this is all well and good it feels like a slick "thought leadership" campaign that provides little in the way of actual solutions to the issues USG orgs face when building/providing digital services. The challenge is not the "approach", but rather a system that constrains the ability to even begin that approach. I find #7 especially hollow: > We need talented people working in government who have experience cre…

A big problem with hiring is just USG pay scales. Even the top pay grades come in at less than what an average (or even less than average) developer can make in industry. Much less if you also consider equity comp. Sure, there are some people who will see working for USDS or 18F as a call to serve their country, and will accept a pay cut in order to do that, but I imagine that's a pretty small slice of the pie. Beyon…

What would be nice is if these government jobs had training. The military can take someone from the street and make them a specialist in something. If USDS could take someone and make them into what they needed, the lower salary might be better justified.

Re: USDS Digital Services Playbook

#90

Post by antpls »

shanear wrote: post #36
stevesycombacct wrote: post #17

I have a lot of heartburn reading something like this. I spent a decade in government consulting trying to implement anything resembling "data science" or "DevOps" and got repeatedly shut down by higher ups or by random bureaucrats that saw any modern practices, including any technology, as a threat. Excel macros working one day, then prohibited the next by new IT policies. Directors demanding that service line bosse…

These plays can work. Why? Because USDS employees are government employees with escalation paths all the way up to the very top which gives them a lot of power to break down bureaucratic barriers to modern software development that government contractors & consultants would have no chance of doing. They then can bring in contractors to work in the relatively modern shell that they've created. For example, here's a pr…

Off-topic : I always wondered if serving one country also deserves the whole world.
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