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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#411

Post by throwawaygh »

slovette wrote: post #384
danudey wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important factor for locating in China is the availability of skilled labor. It would have taken them years to hire enough industrial engineers to handle the scope and scale and volume that the iPhone required in the US, if they could even manage it at all, but only weeks to do so in China. The supply chain is also important. One person who worked in Shenzhen commented that,…

You’re going to get cherry picked apart for this, but as someone who has ran supply chains, been apart of product dev that involved early hardware design & dev and the necessary chain dev to build that design, you hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants a bad guy here, and apples logo with the billions behind it enable people to easily assign blame to that logo (not that they shouldn’t). But what’s forgotten is the…

> The real problem at root is human/consumer behavior. Turning a logo into a fitting evil character borrowed from childhood cartoon narratives is not real.

If the real problem is human/consumer behavior, then any real solution requires changing how humans/consumers behave.

A coordinated campaign to spoil good-will in any company that uses forced labor is an attempt at changing how humans/consumers behave, no?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#412

Post by monocasa »

esarbe wrote: post #409
monocasa wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a deeper structural issue that that. As you say, there's no law mandating it, but here we are.

I'm not sure it's a deeper structural issue. The issue is actually pretty simple; first-past-the-post voting. This automatically leads to a two-party system.

Canada has both first past the post voting and a multi party system, so no, it's a deeper structural issue than that.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#413

Post by derangedHorse »

colpabar wrote: post #200
lsiebert wrote: post #141

For people discussing the difference between forced labor and slavery, this document from the UN's office of the high commisioner on human rights, tracing the history of such terms in international law, may be helpful. https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/slaveryen.pdf

It's crazy the majority of this thread is arguing semantics.

It is ridiculous that it's being argued, but grouping different kinds of human suffering together does seem like it could be a sensitive topic for those that very much see one kind of suffering worse than the other. 'daenz' made the mistake of attempting to group all acts of 'slavery' into equally heinous acts that should be prioritized on all fronts in an effort to rally sentiment towards the cause.

While I agree that this issue should be brought to the forefront of the 1st world public, grouping/comparing these types of things always lead to a misdirection of discussion to semantics in my opinion and comments for stories like these should be focused on educating people more on the problem and brainstorming feasible ways the community can fight against it.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#414

Post by tracyhenry »

f6v wrote: post #331

It's cute that so many HN readers consider this accusation to be true. However I'd like to remind you that China and USA are engaged in a modern edition of Cold War. I'd argue it's naïve to think that such reports can't possibly be part of this war.

^^ I read both US and Chinese media. It's mind boggling how BOTH sides try to draw a bad picture of the other side, usually with baseless accusations. The media has definitely become a political weapon. Sad that many people don't realize this. I took all these kind of articles, from both sides, with a grain of salt.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#415

Post by powerapple »

powerapple wrote: post #237
adrr wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against the largest consumer/retail market in world? Not going to happen at the country level and risk reciprocal economic restrictions. Only way to get china to change is have people vote with their wallets and refuse to buy Chinese made stuff but at the end of the day people just don't care and just want cheap stuff. If you gave someone a choice between $100 IPhone made by slave child labor and $1000 IPhone that wa…

I will buy the phone made by slave child labour because the only reason they exist is because economy, if they make money, at least their next generation can live a better life. It is not likely that without a factory they will study and go to college like you would think. The alternative to a bad choice may be a worse choice, not a better choice.

I have to state a fact that there is no child labour in China. Were their child labour before? Maybe some. My uncle left home when he was 14 to work in a factory. 40-50 years ago. Nowadays, the earliest age you can find real jobs is probably 16. So no, you don't find a child labour made iPhone. But if there is child labour somewhere, you either find a not-worst-case solution or you get him out of there. And you have to think from his point of view, understand his circumstances.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#416

Post by nobody9999 »

mgh2 wrote: post #190
hombre_fatal wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, nobody, including yourself, maybe except the Jainists, are willing to do without the creature comforts of their lifestyle, not just Apple users. Look at all the things you own and use, some of them built in the same Foxconn factory no doubt. We can look the squalor of factory-farmed animals right in the eye while biting into our ham sandwich and say "damn, someone should really do something about that." Or, perha…

Emphasis on the word "fans". Analogy: I hate Google's business model, but I still have to use their products for lack of better alternatives. The difference is that I won't go around evangelizing (i.e. marketing) their products as a consumer, pumping up demand if I knew the negative costs associated with it. On the corporate side is Apple's hypocrisy PR- i.e. don't drink their koolaid.

>Analogy: I hate Google's business model, but I still have to use their products for lack of better alternatives.

I'm curious, which Google product must you use that has no reasonable analog from a different vendor?

I'm not being snarky here just a little confused.

I suppose Android could fall into that definition, although LineageOS[0]+MicroG[1] do provide a reasonable alternative.

My question isn't rhetorical. I'm genuinely not familiar with any Google product without a reasonable alternative.

[0] https://lineageos.org

[1] https://microg.org

Edit: Fixed nonsensical sentence.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#417

Post by klyrs »

moron4hire wrote: post #358
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They aren't thinking about what was fair on the outside. They were just thinking about their options in prison, and in that perspective, the farm looked pretty good. You're making the case that it is involuntary. "Do this or we shall do to you something worse against your will" is textbook coercion.

But it's the thing that would already be done to them if the work program was not available. We put criminals in prison because of the crimes they commit, not because of the jobs they refuse once they are there.

Is it so hard to imagine that folks risking their lives to fight fires should be paid for that heroic service, be they incarcerated or not?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#418

Post by Clubber »

_pp0b wrote: post #41
daenz wrote: post #9

"forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were prod…

Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Forced labour takes different forms, which includes forced paid work and by some definitions penal work. Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person. Being a slave may or may not involve forced labour. In addition, calling Uyghur work “slavery” in fact undermines the cause, allowing CCP…

>Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person.

That's called chattel slavery. Just because something isn't chattel slavery doesn't mean it isn't still slavery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

"Slavery relies heavily on the enslaved person being intimidated either by the threat of violence or some other method of abuse. In chattel slavery, the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner."

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#419

Post by nobody9999 »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #406
nobody9999 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You and the previous poster seem to ignore that the punishment is just (to the extent that the criminal justice system is capable of justice). By your logic, the Uighurs are experiencing "just" punishment under the laws of the People's Republic of China. Since the Uighurs have committed "crimes" (as defined by the government under which they live) against the state, they are subject to whatever punishment is prescri…

No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's a huge difference between that and what's happening in China.

>No, I'm talking about incarceration in the USA. There's a huge difference between that and what's happening in China.

I was aware of that when responding. In fact, when I said:

"There are valid reasons to separate some folks from the rest of society (think John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc.), as they've shown themselves to be unable/unwilling to respect the rights of others within that society.

Incarceration as a tool of punishment, while widely used, often poses more risk of harming society than any benefit from "punishing" offenders.

It's a complex issue, and simplifying it to "Law and order! Lock 'em up!" is reductive and often detrimental to the societies it's supposed to improve."

I was specifically referring to my home, the USA.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#420

Post by baybal2 »

nlitened wrote: post #399
baybal2 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To declare their shares of having no more legal power than toilet paper.

But owning shares mean owning a part of a company? Does that mean that when a company’s shares are invalidated, then the company is now worth zero, and anybody can buy it for a penny? Are the owners forced to sell everything for a penny, or they are allowed to choose, when to sell and at what price? Why would the price be different from current stock price?

One way, or another, whomever owned the company through shares gets his wallet lightened by the amount of shares gone.

They will think twice before bidding on something this underhanded again.

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