For people discussing the difference between forced labor and slavery, this document from the UN's office of the high commisioner on human rights, tracing the history of such terms in international law, may be helpful.
Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#142I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...
It becomes really inconvenient when you have outsourced so much of your manufacturing there. Who is going to make your stuff then? (Maybe something we should have thought of before this, but then China took a turn towards more authoritarian under the current CCP chairman.)
China is now itself outsourcing to cheaper countries, because Chinese labor has become expensive. Supply chains become flexible when the incentives are there. I think the Trump tariffs were on the right track, but for the wrong reasons.
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
but - not being able to conduct its investigation doesn't automatically cause China to be in the wrong. More evidence is needed here. (Independent review being disallowed nationally is a bigger concern I will admit)
In cases like there were actually investigating can land the people doing the investigating in prison, I think proceed according to the cautionary principle. So, if a tyrannical dictatorship like China is accused of abusing human rights and said tyrannical dictatorship is not willing to let people investigate the claims, we can accept the accusations as true until aforementioned tyrannical dictatorship is willing to…
Thanks for the downvotes, it was a good conversation.
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#144Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#145I'm so confused by all the downvotes for reasonable critique of either Apple or China, most of it silent without any justification given. Does anyone care to explain it to me?
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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is an influencer to do? Switch to Android, like poor people? Nobody who matters is going to boycott Apple. Apple will counter with a plausible narrative, "we didn't know, we cancelled contracts, ..." and everything will be fine again. Oh, and a new woke diversity ad to show how much they care about muslims. And everybody will share and clap and feel good.
Why the downvotes? Too close to the truth?
Apparently so! I take your downvotes with pride. Bring them on!
Arguments for a productive discussion would be better though I don't seem to get any of these...
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
A person held against their will and forced to do labor is a slave whether they're called that or not, especially if they have committed no legitimate offense for which such a punishment could be justified. As near as I can tell the Uighurs' "offense" is being of a different ethnicity and being majority Muslim. What the Chinese are doing here is very close to what the USA did in its first century with African slaves.
You are right in your last paragraph. The situation in Xinjang is such that for an Uyghur it is in fact impossible to decline to do what the state says. Any work done with involvement of Uyghur population by default is a situation of forced labour. That’s what the article says. However, using the term “slavery” gives CCP ammunition to fight back. They can point out that Uyghurs are paid. They can claim they are free…
Any criticism will give CCP ammunition to fight back in bad faith. They can say "US government oppressed its colored people too" which is true.
By refusing to criticize them, you are just doing their work for them and giving them a free pass.
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#148...but but others are doing it too, so you can't blame Apple for it!!!1
Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#149Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to chattel slavery that existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. What is reported to be happening to Muslims now in Xinjang, with reeducation camps and all, is not the same as t…
> Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. The Constitution refers to it directly as slavery. The 13th says "except as punishment for a crime." Folks may want to mince words about it because prisoners are technically paid (pennies per hour), if they are even getting paid in the first place. It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Plus, prisoners are…
> It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay.
Just to make sure nobody is confused by this, because the subject comes up a lot - prisoner firefighers are volunteers.