Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

theglobeandmail.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 210 posts

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#61

Post by black6 »

outside1234 wrote: post #55
helge9210 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This should drive down the death rate pretty fast. You can't drive the death rate that didn't rise in the first place. In Israel people are dying with COVID-19, not because of it. We are yet to see someone die from COVID-19 who is not terminally ill, fat and diabetic, immunosuppressed (after organ transplantation or cancer treatment) or very old.

Please stop. Having underlying health conditions that make you less likely to survive COVID-19 does not mean that you were not killed by COVID-19. We wouldn’t say that someone with peanut allergies was killed by the allergy — and not the peanut — so please just stop with this propaganda.

The propaganda is what's being peddled on traditional media. Had the media been responsible in their reporting of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and how it predominantly affects those with multiple underlying health conditions, instead of inciting panic over a re-branded seasonal flu (influenza is a corona-type virus... look at a picture of it), the pandemic might never have occurred. Imagine if the news gave us accurate and actionable information:

"I am a native Brazilian studying in Norway. I better supplement with 200 mcg cholecalciferol."

"I am a teacher who is 5'4" and weighs 190 lbs. I will look to lose 15% of my poundage in three months so that I am less at risk when me state Department of Education makes me return to the classroom of 25 children three months from now."

"I gained weight from stress eating and being cooped up indoors from a lockdown. I'm concentrating on a protein-heavy calorie-restricted diet until my adipose tissue offers a smaller attack surface and fewer ACE2 receptors for the virus which is surely waiting for me the moment I walk outside the confines of my abode."

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#62

Post by sradman »

sradman wrote: post #31

Ontario changes COVID-19 vaccination plans after slowing rollout [1]: > Ontario has changed its COVID-19 vaccination plan to give a first dose to as many people as possible and no longer hold second doses in reserve General Rick Hillier (retired) to Provide an Update at Queen's Park [2] today at 11am EST which is currently shown in the upcoming "Live" tab of CPAC [3]. [1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/articl…

The update by Rick Hillier is complete [1]. For Ontario residents, the key new information:

   - clinic holiday shutdown was a mistake; daily operation will now be the norm
   - first Moderna shipment arrives within 24 hrs, will be distributed outside clinics
   - the vaccination rate is currently limited by supply
   - 80K Pfizer / 50K Moderna per week in January
   - Phase 1 (vulnerable and health care workers): Jan-Mar (~1M)
   - Phase 2 (expanded distribution): Apr-Jul (~8M vaccinated total)
   - sentiment: over 80% of population willing to vaccinate as soon as possible
   - Hillier requested that Health Canada consider a 1-dose Moderna regiment
[1] https://youtu.be/dy0ctRiU2IM?t=1008

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#63

Post by literallyWTF »

black6 wrote: post #61
outside1234 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop. Having underlying health conditions that make you less likely to survive COVID-19 does not mean that you were not killed by COVID-19. We wouldn’t say that someone with peanut allergies was killed by the allergy — and not the peanut — so please just stop with this propaganda.

The propaganda is what's being peddled on traditional media. Had the media been responsible in their reporting of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and how it predominantly affects those with multiple underlying health conditions, instead of inciting panic over a re-branded seasonal flu (influenza is a corona-type virus... look at a picture of it), the pandemic might never have occurred. Imagine if the news gave us accurate and a…

I’ve always wondered how it must feel to literally be irony; claiming something is propaganda while spewing unfettered nonsense.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#64

Post by helge9210 »

outside1234 wrote: post #55
helge9210 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This should drive down the death rate pretty fast. You can't drive the death rate that didn't rise in the first place. In Israel people are dying with COVID-19, not because of it. We are yet to see someone die from COVID-19 who is not terminally ill, fat and diabetic, immunosuppressed (after organ transplantation or cancer treatment) or very old.

Please stop. Having underlying health conditions that make you less likely to survive COVID-19 does not mean that you were not killed by COVID-19. We wouldn’t say that someone with peanut allergies was killed by the allergy — and not the peanut — so please just stop with this propaganda.

> Having underlying health conditions that make you less likely to survive COVID-19 does not mean that you were not killed by COVID-19.

Dying is not "underlying health condition". Immune system collapse is happening before COVID-19 takes hold. If not for COVID, they would die from legionella, hospital infection, gum bacteria, flu, own E.coli and thousands of other causes.

This is not my personal opinion, this is from report of medical representative in front of relevant Israeli parlament commission.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#65

Post by mrighele »

dvivsivd wrote: post #43
raverbashing wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All countries are doing these groups first, of course Israel is probably the country doing it the fastest so I agree, we should see the results faster. And I agree with the topic, better 2 people somewhat immune "now" than half with the full vaccine immunity.

The CDC tried to have non-medical essential workers ahead in line of seniors. The argument was that, although more people would die (including more African Americans), it would even out black vs white ppl deaths metric. [edit] source: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-...

I thought that the point of vaccinating essential workers first is that they are those that are more likely to spread the virus so by starting with them you stop the virus before it reaches the seniors.

Depending on the factors (% of seniors vs. essential workers, availability of vaccine) I can see either approach being more effective.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#66

Post by mercurywells »

zbjornson wrote: post #51
adriancr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I agree with the topic, better 2 people somewhat immune "now" than half with the full vaccine immunity. the 90%+ effectiveness is only with 2 does, who knows how long and if it works with only one dose... it's likely not half and/or not for very long...

Moderna's phase 3 includes preliminary data on a single dose, and it appears 80-90% effective at/after two weeks. See table 15 on page 28: https://www.fda.gov/media/144434/download https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2020/12/18/coronavirus-vac...

From the same report:

> The small, non-random sample and short median follow-up time limits the interpretation of these results. There appears to be some protection against COVID-19 disease following one dose; however, these data do not provide sufficient information about longer term protection beyond 28 days after a single dose.

Obviously it'd be great if we can just dose everyone we can once then do a 2nd dose later, but we just don't know enough about how well that would work out long term.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#67

Post by hawkesnest »

bluenose69 wrote: post #19

It seems reasonable for different provinces to take different approaches, since their disease patterns vary significantly. Ontario and Québec have endured many weeks of increasing numbers of diagnosed infections per day, whilst the other provinces have seen decreases. The absolute incidences also vary between provinces, letting some test-and-trace cases more easily than others.

I would think we have the models to try many different strategies to determine the "best" distribution methodology. Depending upon what the definition of "best" is, of course.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#68

Post by zaroth »

danarmak wrote: post #57
selljamhere wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see any arguments in those slides about trying to “even out black vs white ppl deaths metric.” Social inequality is one of several factors included in their ethical and logistical plan, but interpreting that as an implied black vs white issue seems like a very uncharitable view of the author’s intent.

Page 31, table row "mitigate health inequities" says: An upside (green) of vaccinating essential workers (non-healthcare) first: "Racial and ethnic minority groups disproportionately represented in many essential industries. ~1/4 of essential workers live in low-income families." A downside (red) of vaccinating adults age >65 first: "Racial and ethnic minority groups under-represented among adults >65". The next page…

This is one of the better critiques I’ve found of the CDC’s very absurd position:

https://www.persuasion.community/p/why-im-losing-trust-in-th...

Literally their plan was to kill a greater number of people “because ethics”. It goes against well established pillars of ethical logic against “leveling” outcomes by intentionally making things worse for a group that is better off, and against the most fundamental tenant of medicine to do no harm.

You must apportion a limited supply of life saving medicine to the population most likely to benefit from it. To claim that apportioning the medicine to a population which is orders of magnitudes less likely to benefit from it, knowing that a greater number of people will die as a result, is an abject ethical failure.

Even accounting for the smaller minority share of the elderly population, you still kill more minorities overall by apportioning the vaccine to essential workers ahead of the elderly, because the death rate is so heavily skewed based on age.

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#69

Post by tdy721 »

ojbyrne wrote: post #40

Seems like there could be a middle ground, administer more or less of the second dose based on the amount stockpiled and the probability of future deliveries.

Testing is already strained? And missing doses is all waste. Too risky imho?

Re: We should administer Covid-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserve doses

#70

Post by DanBC »

helge9210 wrote: post #64
outside1234 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop. Having underlying health conditions that make you less likely to survive COVID-19 does not mean that you were not killed by COVID-19. We wouldn’t say that someone with peanut allergies was killed by the allergy — and not the peanut — so please just stop with this propaganda.

> Having underlying health conditions that make you less likely to survive COVID-19 does not mean that you were not killed by COVID-19. Dying is not "underlying health condition". Immune system collapse is happening before COVID-19 takes hold. If not for COVID, they would die from legionella, hospital infection, gum bacteria, flu, own E.coli and thousands of other causes. This is not my personal opinion, this is from…

When people talk about "pre-existing conditions" they mean things like high blood pressure or type 1 diabetes -- the kind of thing that can be well maintained and has almost no impact on the person.
Post reply on HN