Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

smithsonianmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 62 posts

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#41

Post by nsajko »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #19
jeltz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because if you remove treasures from their context we you often destroy an important archeological site. Many European countries do not want looters to destroy their heritages and windows into history.

Interesting. There seems to be a major cultural difference on this. On the one hand, the argument is that individuals collecting artifacts destroys the scientific utility of the excavation site. On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground. I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate g…

The difference is not between potential good and immediate good, it is between common good and what's (supposedly) good for the looter.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#42

Post by yostrovs »

flagrant wrote: post #32
yostrovs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather historically interesting objects that don't belong to anyone be unearthed and return to humanity, be they owned by an individual or a museum. Otherwise they continue degrading under the surface, and what good is that?

The whole point of these laws is to ensure that interesting objects return to humanity. When an individual digs up an object and keeps it, it has not returned to humanity. Furthermore, information about the object, such as its location and condition is irretrievably lost. If an object cannot be responsibly recovered and catalogued then it should remain in the ground until it can be.

You imply that an individual is not part of humanity so that only museums, usually governed by the state, create the illusion of humanity. I disagree. The Chinese government during the Cultural Revolution destroyed nearly the entirety of Chinese historical objects. What was saved by unofficial groups or individuals became Chinese history. I'm just glad the Jacobins are not totally in charge in France, as they would think it better to just melt the finds into useful metal.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#43

Post by oefrha »

yostrovs wrote: post #31
huhtenberg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will only serve to entice treasure hunting, which is an inherently destructive activity.

How is it destructive if before the treasure hunter there was no treasure and now there is one? Things underground degrade with time so finding them helps to preserve them.

Some artifacts last hundreds to thousands of years in their original condition yet degrade almost instantly once exposed to air, especially the oxygen in it. Excavation is a delicate science.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#44

Post by jansan »

lodovic wrote: post #21
rasz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same BS law in Poland. No one bothers to look for stuff, but if you happen to find anything you are automatically a criminal.

It really doesn't matter if anyone bothers to look for it. If it's on public land, it belongs to the state. You're also not allowed to chop down a tree or dig a hole.

You surely means it belongs to society.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#45

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

yostrovs wrote: post #42
flagrant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of these laws is to ensure that interesting objects return to humanity. When an individual digs up an object and keeps it, it has not returned to humanity. Furthermore, information about the object, such as its location and condition is irretrievably lost. If an object cannot be responsibly recovered and catalogued then it should remain in the ground until it can be.

You imply that an individual is not part of humanity so that only museums, usually governed by the state, create the illusion of humanity. I disagree. The Chinese government during the Cultural Revolution destroyed nearly the entirety of Chinese historical objects. What was saved by unofficial groups or individuals became Chinese history. I'm just glad the Jacobins are not totally in charge in France, as they would t…

The issue is that jackasses don't document their finds. Context in which you found something is as important, if not more, than the item. Not to mention idiots destroy archeo sites because they are interested in trinkets they can sell rather than history itself. There is a reason why you don't dig up the entire site but rather put in a few trenches after noninvasive research.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#46

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

yostrovs wrote: post #29
nsajko wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There are two issues: the artifacts are not just treasure - scientifically their context (in the ground and in time) is what matters, the context the treasure hunter removed them from. I.e., he prevented scientists from ever being able do the digs themselves. The other issue is that, AFAIK, scientists often prefer to leave parts of sites intact for future research, presumably hoping for better technology in the f…

No one else wanted to dig this stuff up. He didn't "prevent" anyone from doing anything.

They denied anyone in future from digging it up (or not doing so, noninvasive archeo is a thing). I'm both surprised and not to find such selfish arguments as yours here.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#47

Post by rasz »

jacquesm wrote: post #24
rasz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We perform a lot of other illegal activities, doesnt change the law. (Ustawa z dnia 23 lipca 2003 r. o ochronie zabytków i opiece nad zabytkami (Dz. U. 2003 Nr 162 poz. 1568) defines metal detector usage a felony, 2018 amendment makes it a crime. https://histmag.org/Wykrywacz-metali-nowe-prawo-w-Polsce-a-p... TLDR: illegal, ~100K people do it anyway.

But something being illegal is actually incentive to give it a shot in Poland, this is ancient tradition. At least since Soviet Bloc times and quite possibly before then. Nielegalny translates roughly as 'must be interesting', or so I'm told ;)

Pre 1989 under Iron Curtain pretty much _everything_ was illegal. Any activity not aligned with primary party goals and thinking lines had some paragraph attached to it. It all stemmed from the "mother country", Stalins Russia. As Beria used to say "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime". Thats Lavrentiy Beria, head of Secret Police under Stalin, and the father of Katyn massacre - murdering 22K Polish military officers with a shot to the back of the head and burying bodies in a forest mass graves.

The Death of Stalin (2017) is a lighthearted movie showing the tragedy, farce and terror of living under Soviet rule.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#48

Post by Mirioron »

lodovic wrote: post #25
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. There seems to be a major cultural difference on this. On the one hand, the argument is that individuals collecting artifacts destroys the scientific utility of the excavation site. On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground. I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate g…

"Someone doing the work to find coins" - the flip side is "selfish with no moral compass". Historians won't have reliable sources anymore, parts of sites will be missing, this is such a waste. But hey someone made a few bucks.

Or alternatively, nobody will find those coins and we won't even know they existed.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#49

Post by yostrovs »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #34
yostrovs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather historically interesting objects that don't belong to anyone be unearthed and return to humanity, be they owned by an individual or a museum. Otherwise they continue degrading under the surface, and what good is that?

The object itself is usually only as interesting as the area in which it was found - it's the ground and things that surround it that lets archeologists establish the age, meaning and significance of an artifact. Just digging something up destroys that information. (Also I suspect such artifacts will degrade much faster if unearthed and improperly handled than they would if left in the ground.)

Obviously there are not enough academic archaeologists to dig up the stuff, not even a small fraction probably, considering how much time passed and how much dirt there is to sift through. Plus the vast majority of the found stuff has little historical significance. Finding Roman coins and medieval metal tools should not be equated with finding an Egyptian tomb. Their value is pretty much as collector items. They are sold on eBay.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#50

Post by flagrant »

yostrovs wrote: post #42
flagrant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of these laws is to ensure that interesting objects return to humanity. When an individual digs up an object and keeps it, it has not returned to humanity. Furthermore, information about the object, such as its location and condition is irretrievably lost. If an object cannot be responsibly recovered and catalogued then it should remain in the ground until it can be.

You imply that an individual is not part of humanity so that only museums, usually governed by the state, create the illusion of humanity. I disagree. The Chinese government during the Cultural Revolution destroyed nearly the entirety of Chinese historical objects. What was saved by unofficial groups or individuals became Chinese history. I'm just glad the Jacobins are not totally in charge in France, as they would t…

What is the functional difference between destroying an artifact and keeping an artifact in a private collection where nobody can see it, from the point of view of humanity?
Post reply on HN