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Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#21

Post by lodovic »

rasz wrote: post #6
Danieru wrote: post #2

> As Daniel Boffey notes for the Guardian, using a metal detector for anything other than scientific research is outlawed in France. Oh wow, there must be a big story behind this law. How could something so mundane as a metal detector be banned? The article says he "stole these from sites", is that implying he went to active dig sites or public attractions? There is so much to unpack here. Are ground penetrating rada…

Same BS law in Poland. No one bothers to look for stuff, but if you happen to find anything you are automatically a criminal.

It really doesn't matter if anyone bothers to look for it. If it's on public land, it belongs to the state. You're also not allowed to chop down a tree or dig a hole.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#22

Post by rasz »

namenotrequired wrote: post #11
rasz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same BS law in Poland. No one bothers to look for stuff, but if you happen to find anything you are automatically a criminal.

Really? Is there no chance to report the find legally?

Sure, you can report it and there is even a reward, but only if you found something accidentally without searching for it. For example farmer dragging stuff up with a plow, or builder digging a well. Reporting a find with metal detector is a crime with up to ~$100K and 2 year prison sentence, or up to 8 years if experts deem you destroyed something by accitend.

https://www.adwokat-prawo.com/post/nie-legalne-hobby-poszuki...

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#23

Post by huhtenberg »

preciz wrote: post #7

“This is a clear message to those who, for the benefit and selfish pleasure of a few, rob us of our common heritage and erase entire swaths of our history.” There should be a better process to legally report the items or exchange them for market value so this wouldn't happen in the first place?

This will only serve to entice treasure hunting, which is an inherently destructive activity.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#24

Post by jacquesm »

rasz wrote: post #18
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if you do it for personal profit. Its not unreasonable for the rules to be something more than the playground "Finders, Keepers". Grow up. Further, Poland has one of the highest rates of metal detector usage.

We perform a lot of other illegal activities, doesnt change the law. (Ustawa z dnia 23 lipca 2003 r. o ochronie zabytków i opiece nad zabytkami (Dz. U. 2003 Nr 162 poz. 1568) defines metal detector usage a felony, 2018 amendment makes it a crime. https://histmag.org/Wykrywacz-metali-nowe-prawo-w-Polsce-a-p... TLDR: illegal, ~100K people do it anyway.

But something being illegal is actually incentive to give it a shot in Poland, this is ancient tradition. At least since Soviet Bloc times and quite possibly before then.

Nielegalny translates roughly as 'must be interesting', or so I'm told ;)

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#25

Post by lodovic »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #19
jeltz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because if you remove treasures from their context we you often destroy an important archeological site. Many European countries do not want looters to destroy their heritages and windows into history.

Interesting. There seems to be a major cultural difference on this. On the one hand, the argument is that individuals collecting artifacts destroys the scientific utility of the excavation site. On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground. I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate g…

"Someone doing the work to find coins" - the flip side is "selfish with no moral compass". Historians won't have reliable sources anymore, parts of sites will be missing, this is such a waste. But hey someone made a few bucks.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#26

Post by lostlogin »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #19
jeltz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because if you remove treasures from their context we you often destroy an important archeological site. Many European countries do not want looters to destroy their heritages and windows into history.

Interesting. There seems to be a major cultural difference on this. On the one hand, the argument is that individuals collecting artifacts destroys the scientific utility of the excavation site. On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground. I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate g…

> I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate good.

Trading off long term good for immediate satisfaction is pretty common. Getting the discipline to wait for the long term gain is a thing we train kids to do, with varying degrees of success. I’m a sucker for wanting the nice shiny thing right now.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#27

Post by yostrovs »

jeltz wrote: post #9
Danieru wrote: post #2

> As Daniel Boffey notes for the Guardian, using a metal detector for anything other than scientific research is outlawed in France. Oh wow, there must be a big story behind this law. How could something so mundane as a metal detector be banned? The article says he "stole these from sites", is that implying he went to active dig sites or public attractions? There is so much to unpack here. Are ground penetrating rada…

The reason is assholes like the guy in this article. Metal detectors are banned in Sweden too and I am all in favor of that law.

I would rather historically interesting objects that don't belong to anyone be unearthed and return to humanity, be they owned by an individual or a museum. Otherwise they continue degrading under the surface, and what good is that?

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#28

Post by jansan »

samizdis wrote: post #8
Aeolun wrote: post #3

Wait, he went around different sites all around two countries digging this stuff up, and officials were surprised he didn’t turn it over to the state? Nobody could be bothered to retrieve these artifacts in the first place. I don’t see how the state has (or should have) any more inherent right to them than this guy. The least they could do is pay him for the objects. Apparently they’re worth 700k!

The UK has similar laws, requiring people who find things defined under the Treasure Act 1996 (except in Scotland) as treasure to report their find to a coroner within 14 days. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996 Finders have to offer the treasure for sale to a museum/similar at a price determined by an independent panel. The UK also has broader, older rules governing "treasure trove", with slight re…

This makes a lot of sense. These artefacts usually disappear in a museum's basement and nobody actually gives a shit, but officials act as if they have great value. If the museums actually have to shill out some money, it becomes quite clear which artefacts actually do have value and which don't.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#29

Post by yostrovs »

nsajko wrote: post #5
Aeolun wrote: post #3

Wait, he went around different sites all around two countries digging this stuff up, and officials were surprised he didn’t turn it over to the state? Nobody could be bothered to retrieve these artifacts in the first place. I don’t see how the state has (or should have) any more inherent right to them than this guy. The least they could do is pay him for the objects. Apparently they’re worth 700k!

No. There are two issues: the artifacts are not just treasure - scientifically their context (in the ground and in time) is what matters, the context the treasure hunter removed them from. I.e., he prevented scientists from ever being able do the digs themselves. The other issue is that, AFAIK, scientists often prefer to leave parts of sites intact for future research, presumably hoping for better technology in the f…

No one else wanted to dig this stuff up. He didn't "prevent" anyone from doing anything.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#30

Post by jansan »

huhtenberg wrote: post #23
preciz wrote: post #7

“This is a clear message to those who, for the benefit and selfish pleasure of a few, rob us of our common heritage and erase entire swaths of our history.” There should be a better process to legally report the items or exchange them for market value so this wouldn't happen in the first place?

This will only serve to entice treasure hunting, which is an inherently destructive activity.

It does not have to be destructive, and a swarm of amateurs could achieve much more than those lazy ass ivory tower archaeologists if a good framework of rules existed.
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