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Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

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Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#111

Post by yodsanklai »

foldr wrote: post #107
orbifold wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a job at google is nowhere near as competitive as getting tenure, you have to live in an alternate reality to believe that. I know several people that went there after their PhD one of them got the lowest possible grade on their dissertation (rete). Both published no papers as first author.

It's a different skill set, though. Just because someone was a mediocre academic doesn't mean that they weren't a great candidate from Google's point of view. There are also lots of very successful academics who Google wouldn't hire. For my part, I had a couple of decent shots at getting a tenure-track job, but I doubt I'd make it through more than a couple of rounds of Google's interview process. Perhaps it's easier…

Overall, I'd say it's harder to get an academic position than a job at Google. But these are different skill sets as you say.

Getting a job at Google is "just" a matter of graduating from a good school, grinding 500+ leetcode problems, applying at the right time, and being somewhat lucky. I would say that anyone who managed to get a tenure-track job is able to do this (provided they are willing to spend the time preparing for the interviews - which is quite a commitment).

Getting an academic position is harder. Even though I've seen very average people getting one too...

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#112

Post by foldr »

ichbinwiederda wrote: post #110
foldr wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have explained that I am thinking of a pure software engineering job. I.e., the kind that you can apply for if you're smart and can code, but don't have a research background that jives with the kind of research that Google is doing. If you want that kind of job you're competing against a lot of very smart people who've studied very hard for the interview process. If you have an ML PhD or something like that…

An ML PhD will not help you pass leetcode tests. Completely different knowledge base.

Yes indeed. I assume Google often hire ML PhDs for their ML expertise and not just their coding skills. But I have no first-hand experience.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#113

Post by NalNezumi »

azalemeth wrote: post #86
NalNezumi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, what advice would you give to a person that is in that position you were when the opportunity of PhD was given? (and have a childhood dream of being a professor) I met one person at my Master's degree lab who went on to PhD, he said his childhood dream was to be a professor (and his father was a professor). I also have a father that is a professor (and have been very curious about PhD - although that win…

Doing a PhD is definitely not the same thing as becoming an academic. If anything, the PhD is a direct career boost: it's a recognised, high-level qualification that is known the world over (and, incidentally, if you go outside the US, you can probably get it done an awful lot quicker...). If you love the subject -- and you have to love the subject -- do it. It's like being paid to play. Going from PhD to Prof though…

Thank you for the reply :) I'll add it to my note of "pros/cons & advice to take in to account before important decision" that I've started to log after my repeated mistakes..!

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#114

Post by dendodge »

physicsguy wrote: post #88

For me, doing a postdoc would mean relocating regularly, my wife having to find new jobs with me (a big stress point for her), a huge amount of job insecurity, etc. By not doing a postdoc, I’ve been able to find a permanent job that pays significantly more, buy a house, and actually start to think about starting a family, which is more important to me. I think if you’re single and male then it’s OK but it’s not surpr…

I'm finishing my PhD in the next couple of months, and am fortunate enough to have a fiancée and a house. I interviewed for one postdoc and found myself hoping I wouldn't get it because it would mean living apart for a few years, or else uprooting our lives and moving across the country, only to repeat the process in a few years' time, with no guarantee of ever finding a permanent position.

I'm completely lost now, I have no job lined up and no idea what I'll be doing with my life in 3 months' time, but I do know I'm getting out. I love science, I love the research I do, but it's not a steady career. It's nice to hear someone else who feels the same way - inside the academic bubble, anything other than giving your life to the broken system is seen as failure.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#115

Post by barry-cotter »

angrais wrote: post #109
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not thriving in computer science because that field is competing against a tight supply of labor. Compare that to a field where you have an oversupply of PhDs, and I’m sure you’ll find different average experiences.

I'm not sure how you're making the connection between competition within labour markets leading to less bullying? The research field may not be that relevant when it comes to bullying as it is prevalent across fields.

If people know they can walk out and get a job tomorrow making good money they are a lot less likely to tolerate abuse of any kind. That’s true in CS, most Engineering fields, Economics, a few other places. If you’re in a field like English literature or Anthropology with 10-100 applicants per tenure track job and shag all industry demand for your skills your exit options are substantially worse. And culture reacts to incentives. In the end people will treat others like garbage if they can with no consequences. Good labor conditions always come down to having a good BATNA, a good exit option.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#116

Post by unishark »

orbifold wrote: post #104
foldr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect o…

Getting a job at google is nowhere near as competitive as getting tenure, you have to live in an alternate reality to believe that. I know several people that went there after their PhD one of them got the lowest possible grade on their dissertation (rete). Both published no papers as first author.

What are the actual odds? Last I saw for engineering, something like 10 percent of phd's find a tenure track job _somewhere_ (and it was double that ten years ago). You're comparing the difficulty of getting a job at a single selective company to getting in to any college in the country.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#117

Post by angrais »

barry-cotter wrote: post #115
angrais wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how you're making the connection between competition within labour markets leading to less bullying? The research field may not be that relevant when it comes to bullying as it is prevalent across fields.

If people know they can walk out and get a job tomorrow making good money they are a lot less likely to tolerate abuse of any kind. That’s true in CS, most Engineering fields, Economics, a few other places. If you’re in a field like English literature or Anthropology with 10-100 applicants per tenure track job and shag all industry demand for your skills your exit options are substantially worse. And culture reacts t…

I agree, but in practice this is rarely the case for multiple reasons depending if we're taking about PhDs or postdocs.

For PhDs, they've commited to a long project, so might feel defeated for quitting.

For postdocs, it's true that they could likely get a job if they left, bit at the same time, the may be half way through a role and want to pursue a job in academia. Switching careers is not an easy thing to do, and that's essentially what you're doing when leaving the academy.

In addition, it's worth noting that computer science is very diverse, including broad subfields such as HCI, so it's not necessarily correct in your framing of CS.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#118

Post by [deleted] »

ichbinwiederda wrote: post #110
foldr wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have explained that I am thinking of a pure software engineering job. I.e., the kind that you can apply for if you're smart and can code, but don't have a research background that jives with the kind of research that Google is doing. If you want that kind of job you're competing against a lot of very smart people who've studied very hard for the interview process. If you have an ML PhD or something like that…

An ML PhD will not help you pass leetcode tests. Completely different knowledge base.

[deleted]

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#119

Post by code4tee »

A long time ago the best talent from PhD programs tended to stay in academia. That was considered the “prize.” Over the last 15 years or so the tables have really turned. Not saying top people don’t stay, but I now see much if not most of the top talent continuing their careers in the private sector or elsewhere. We’re in an era where the most cutting edge and impactful research increasingly does not take place at academic institutions. Between that and the vastly different compensation structures in the private sector it’s not too surprising top people want to go elsewhere.

As someone mentioned to me recently “Success in academia is defined by publishing papers mostly read only by a few other people that define success as publishing papers. Success outside academia is defined by doing amazing $&@! that has a measurable impact on the world.”

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#120

Post by blackrock »

phist_mcgee wrote: post #87
flobosg wrote: post #4

I’m currently writing my dissertation and still debating whether to stay in academia or not. I mean, even if I had not been academically unsuccessful during grad school I will get a piece of paper saying "You have a PhD" in the end. If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. That’s a huge burden.

I have a PhD. The acquisition of that certification was perhaps the most meaningless thing of my life. Behind my Bachelor's by far. No one was really proud of me, and I only finished it because I have a problem with not finishing things. Finish it if you have it in you, cut it loose if you do not. Dr. means nothing, and no one in the real world will care either way.

What field is your PhD in?
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