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Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

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Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#101

Post by yodsanklai »

angrais wrote: post #96
yodsanklai wrote: post #94

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs s…

>> I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). Great to hear that you've not encountered bullying in the academy, but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving. Often when it occurs, the university will side with the academic rather than postdoc or PhD students, which puts them in an extremely difficult situation since their…

> but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving

I'm sure it exists. I may be wrong since it's based on personal experience, but I can't believe it's thriving (at least, in my field, computer science). These things are taken more and more seriously. If anything, I can only imagine they occur less and less frequently.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#102

Post by angrais »

yodsanklai wrote: post #101
angrais wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). Great to hear that you've not encountered bullying in the academy, but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving. Often when it occurs, the university will side with the academic rather than postdoc or PhD students, which puts them in an extremely difficult situation since their…

> but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving I'm sure it exists. I may be wrong since it's based on personal experience, but I can't believe it's thriving (at least, in my field, computer science). These things are taken more and more seriously. If anything, I can only imagine they occur less and less frequently.

In my experience, and that of my colleagues within a UK institution, also in computer science, the university does indeed take it seriously. We've had external auditors come in and ultimately do nothing.

The problem is that the university is setup to protect itself when such reports are made, so rarely is anyone fired or such. It's a much worse situation for the student than academic.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#103

Post by thomasahle »

foldr wrote: post #98
yodsanklai wrote: post #94

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs s…

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect o…

> For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position.

That's far from my experience.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#104

Post by orbifold »

foldr wrote: post #98
yodsanklai wrote: post #94

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs s…

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect o…

Getting a job at google is nowhere near as competitive as getting tenure, you have to live in an alternate reality to believe that. I know several people that went there after their PhD one of them got the lowest possible grade on their dissertation (rete). Both published no papers as first author.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#105

Post by Melchizedek »

This will (like several other factors in society) function like a form of reverse eugenics, where people way above average in intelligence (high heritability) and conscientiousness (moderate heritability) are prevented from having children, or start having them so late that they will not have many.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#106

Post by AuthorizedCust »

yodsanklai wrote: post #101
angrais wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). Great to hear that you've not encountered bullying in the academy, but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving. Often when it occurs, the university will side with the academic rather than postdoc or PhD students, which puts them in an extremely difficult situation since their…

> but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving I'm sure it exists. I may be wrong since it's based on personal experience, but I can't believe it's thriving (at least, in my field, computer science). These things are taken more and more seriously. If anything, I can only imagine they occur less and less frequently.

It’s not thriving in computer science because that field is competing against a tight supply of labor. Compare that to a field where you have an oversupply of PhDs, and I’m sure you’ll find different average experiences.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#107

Post by foldr »

orbifold wrote: post #104
foldr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect o…

Getting a job at google is nowhere near as competitive as getting tenure, you have to live in an alternate reality to believe that. I know several people that went there after their PhD one of them got the lowest possible grade on their dissertation (rete). Both published no papers as first author.

It's a different skill set, though. Just because someone was a mediocre academic doesn't mean that they weren't a great candidate from Google's point of view. There are also lots of very successful academics who Google wouldn't hire.

For my part, I had a couple of decent shots at getting a tenure-track job, but I doubt I'd make it through more than a couple of rounds of Google's interview process. Perhaps it's easier than I think though (I've not tried it), but for sure there are vastly more people who want to work at Google than there are positions available.

The chance of getting a tenure track job can vary a lot from field to field, so it's not surprising that people are reporting very different views on this.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#108

Post by foldr »

thomasahle wrote: post #103
foldr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect o…

> For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. That's far from my experience.

I should have explained that I am thinking of a pure software engineering job. I.e., the kind that you can apply for if you're smart and can code, but don't have a research background that jives with the kind of research that Google is doing. If you want that kind of job you're competing against a lot of very smart people who've studied very hard for the interview process.

If you have an ML PhD or something like that, it may be a different story.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#109

Post by angrais »

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #106
yodsanklai wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving I'm sure it exists. I may be wrong since it's based on personal experience, but I can't believe it's thriving (at least, in my field, computer science). These things are taken more and more seriously. If anything, I can only imagine they occur less and less frequently.

It’s not thriving in computer science because that field is competing against a tight supply of labor. Compare that to a field where you have an oversupply of PhDs, and I’m sure you’ll find different average experiences.

I'm not sure how you're making the connection between competition within labour markets leading to less bullying?

The research field may not be that relevant when it comes to bullying as it is prevalent across fields.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#110

Post by ichbinwiederda »

foldr wrote: post #108
thomasahle wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. That's far from my experience.

I should have explained that I am thinking of a pure software engineering job. I.e., the kind that you can apply for if you're smart and can code, but don't have a research background that jives with the kind of research that Google is doing. If you want that kind of job you're competing against a lot of very smart people who've studied very hard for the interview process. If you have an ML PhD or something like that…

An ML PhD will not help you pass leetcode tests. Completely different knowledge base.
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