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Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

nature.com

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Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#81

Post by marmaduke »

I’m a staff scientist and watch post docs and students get ground up into grant fodder in a regular basis. Sure there are discoveries but at what cost to our mental health?

I think there are two politically convenient roles to academia: (1) allow a country to posture about money is has to spend, case in point are EU flagships which everyone agrees is a big waste but it puts EU on the map, research wise. (2) it keeps smart, will to power people occupied far enough away from real society problems such as racism, climate change, poverty and so on, to stabilize the status quo. Imagine what would happen if people who can do 80 hour weeks churning through genetic data to generate new insights (or similar for different fields) started working in earnest on evidence driven policy change?

I think these roles are more explanatory for the funding of science than the discoveries themselves.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#82

Post by ramraj07 »

j7ake wrote: post #76

I think the academic path should be compared as analogous to other “creatives” paths (eg writer, musician, artists), although probably less extreme. People continue to do it because of the ownership of the work, the nearly unlimited potential upside from discovery, and the ability to build on serendipitous discoveries into your own portfolio. The downside is being stuck in a bad situation in academia can be psycholog…

"the nearly unlimited potential upside" is very low probability, and if people are being fully honest with themselves, they often already know before they start their postdoc whether it's going to be worth their time.

The reality is that in academia, pedigree matters, being surrounded by very smart people matters, name matters. If you don't have all of these then your postdoc is doomed to be nothing more than a mediocre-paper-mill at best. Better to get out sooner rather than later.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#83

Post by dgb23 »

throwaway67853 wrote: post #12

IMHO the big problem in experimental sciences is what the article kindly describes as power imbalances. I'd call it perhaps neofeudalism. I've seen many cases where principal investigators / professors are completely disconnected from research, including an absolute lack of any basic knowledge related to the field. They are just middlemen. For someone coming from pure mathematics, where professors routinely come up w…

Seniority shouldn’t just imply power, but responsibility over others.

A master should be judged by the success of his apprentice just as much as his own skill.

It’s saddening to see that people are being exploited in such a direct, obvious way. And it just happily goes on?

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#84

Post by azalemeth »

chrisseaton wrote: post #19
aaronblohowiak wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get lucky in academia you get the possibility of tenure track which is a made race to publish and that means not only doing your research, but grant writing, dealing with internal politics and discovering life as a manager of grad students... oh yea, and can you lecture these undergrads too?

This isn't what I see in practice. Most professional researchers at the level of being a professor teach a couple of masters lectures for topics they're genuinely interested in and the rest of the time enjoy working on their research.

At Oxford and Cambridge in the UK, an explicit part of the system is that almost every senior academic teaches common, first/second-year "core" courses and spends a significant amount of time -- 6 or 12 hours a week in full term -- directly teaching 18-21 year olds. In addition to running a group and everything else. It is very rarely negotiable, and usually not.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#85

Post by dgb23 »

supernova87a wrote: post #31

I mean, isn't it clear, ever since the bulk creation / funding of so many colleges (and faculty positions) pre + post WW2, the US faculty job market has been on a decline ever since -- (that is, from the average postdoc's point of view of success % when seeking a faculty position). It is structurally not a growing, dynamic market where you're going to have an easy time. I would call it stagnant, or in the worst case,…

Reminds me of discworld’s unseen university.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#86

Post by azalemeth »

NalNezumi wrote: post #63
Mmrnmhrm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate. I just read this at 3am while trying to stop wondering what to do with my life. I had the childhood dream of being a professor, and after a short stint in industry, when someone gave me the chance to do a PhD I took it. Life got in the way and got my PhD at 36 years old. Nobody guided me, and did not optimize my publication schedule, so it is impossible to land a job in academia. Now I am postdoc 39, no…

I'm curious, what advice would you give to a person that is in that position you were when the opportunity of PhD was given? (and have a childhood dream of being a professor) I met one person at my Master's degree lab who went on to PhD, he said his childhood dream was to be a professor (and his father was a professor). I also have a father that is a professor (and have been very curious about PhD - although that win…

Doing a PhD is definitely not the same thing as becoming an academic. If anything, the PhD is a direct career boost: it's a recognised, high-level qualification that is known the world over (and, incidentally, if you go outside the US, you can probably get it done an awful lot quicker...). If you love the subject -- and you have to love the subject -- do it. It's like being paid to play.

Going from PhD to Prof though, is a difficult, unlikely path of awkward postings: for every 100 PhDs expect ~1 successful academic. Oh, and once you are a professor, expect a salary....less than that you'd get in a starting job straight out of your PhD.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#87

Post by phist_mcgee »

flobosg wrote: post #4

I’m currently writing my dissertation and still debating whether to stay in academia or not. I mean, even if I had not been academically unsuccessful during grad school I will get a piece of paper saying "You have a PhD" in the end. If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. That’s a huge burden.

I have a PhD. The acquisition of that certification was perhaps the most meaningless thing of my life. Behind my Bachelor's by far. No one was really proud of me, and I only finished it because I have a problem with not finishing things. Finish it if you have it in you, cut it loose if you do not. Dr. means nothing, and no one in the real world will care either way.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#88

Post by physicsguy »

For me, doing a postdoc would mean relocating regularly, my wife having to find new jobs with me (a big stress point for her), a huge amount of job insecurity, etc.

By not doing a postdoc, I’ve been able to find a permanent job that pays significantly more, buy a house, and actually start to think about starting a family, which is more important to me.

I think if you’re single and male then it’s OK but it’s not surprising for e.g. that there are underrepresented groups in some fields of science at lectureship level when they basically have to sacrifice any stability in order to get to that position. I grew up quite poor and do not want to get into that position again - and I can’t afford to not have a job gap for 4 months which is the sort of length I’ve seen friends endure while one contract ends and another starts.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#89

Post by sweezyjeezy »

marmaduke wrote: post #81

I’m a staff scientist and watch post docs and students get ground up into grant fodder in a regular basis. Sure there are discoveries but at what cost to our mental health? I think there are two politically convenient roles to academia: (1) allow a country to posture about money is has to spend, case in point are EU flagships which everyone agrees is a big waste but it puts EU on the map, research wise. (2) it keeps…

I don't buy (2) at all.

a) I don't think the overlap between postdocs (especially STEM) and those that would work in politics is all that high. I think the vast majority would be working in tech/industry.

b) if this were true we might expect republicans to support government funding for academia over democrats, and the opposite is true.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#90

Post by DrAwdeOccarim »

ramraj07 wrote: post #82
j7ake wrote: post #76

I think the academic path should be compared as analogous to other “creatives” paths (eg writer, musician, artists), although probably less extreme. People continue to do it because of the ownership of the work, the nearly unlimited potential upside from discovery, and the ability to build on serendipitous discoveries into your own portfolio. The downside is being stuck in a bad situation in academia can be psycholog…

"the nearly unlimited potential upside" is very low probability, and if people are being fully honest with themselves, they often already know before they start their postdoc whether it's going to be worth their time. The reality is that in academia, pedigree matters, being surrounded by very smart people matters, name matters. If you don't have all of these then your postdoc is doomed to be nothing more than a medio…

It's like a weighting function to your research output: (Pedigree + Name of PI) * first author CNS papers. You sure can succeed with a ton of first author CNS papers, but if you have some good pedigree and name of PI you don't need any many.
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