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Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

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Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#101

Post by crusso »

GVIrish wrote: post #94
ergocoder wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea why this matters. Timnit gave an ultimatum (i.e. do this or I'll leave). Google agreed to her condition of parting way. This is like I go to my boss and ask for a $1 billion dollars. Otherwise, I'll leave. Then, my boss decides that I should leave since the boss can't give me $1b. Then, I keep telling my friends that "well, I'm actually fired.". huh?

She gave a set of conditions and stated that if they couldn't be met, that she would work with Google to schedule a resignation date. Google then cut off her corporate access and terminated her employment immediately, ergo, firing. If someone says, do this or I'll jump, and the other person pushes them, that's not the same thing as the person taking the leap on their own. The result might be the same, but the way the…

As someone who just learned about this kerfuffle a few minutes ago, that doesn't make sense to claim that she was fired.

If you offer to resign if new conditions of employment aren't met and the company accepts your resignation without honoring your exact terms of schedule, it sounds like you largely were responsible for terminating your own employment. Claiming that you were "immediately fired" as she tweeted just sounds dishonest to me.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#102

Post by adamsea »

bzb6 wrote: post #76
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was, yes. Public statements she made before getting fired include: > A Black woman can't survive around here doing any type of research let alone research thats designed to make those in the majority uncomfortable. And guess who can apparently unilaterally order you to do things without even thinking you're someone they should converse with. ( https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1331757629996109824 ) > [The VPs…

A black woman? How is she black?

Do you really mean that?

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#103

Post by [deleted] »

salawat wrote: post #90
free_rms wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper she was fired over was leaked, though, and it's.. not novel. It's the same things everyone else has been saying for years (global warming bad, also don't build a racist speech reproducer), and Google wanted her to reference their efforts to mitigate those things in addition to repeating yet again that they can happen. Self-serving? Sure, but not really censorship and honestly would make the paper better to…

>Google wanted her to reference their efforts to mitigate those things in addition to repeating yet again that they can happen. Self-serving? Sure, but not really censorship. You have a really funny world-view where compelled speech doesn't fall in the censorship bucket.

[deleted]

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#104

Post by stronglikedan »

thenightcrawler wrote: post #28
tomcam wrote: post #24

I have contempt for a lot of the things that Google does, but I have a sincere question about all of this. Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? I would say the same about Peter Norvig or Guido van Rossum. If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on?

Was it public before she got fired?

She wasn't fired. She resigned, because of a her-way-or-the-highway mentality.

FTA: In later tweets, Gebru clarified that no one at Google explicitly told her that she was fired. Rather, she said Google would not meet a number of her conditions for returning and accepted her resignation immediately because it felt that her email reflected "behavior that is inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager."

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#105

Post by alilleybrinker »

crusso wrote: post #92
fabian2k wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this particular job does require a certain independence to do it properly. If business concerns would override and silence the Ethical AI team, then you might as well not have one in the first place. It would be purely a PR thing, which it well might have been after all. Having someone that is known to speak their mind in such a team does lend it more credibility. But you also can't complain if they then spea…

Because this particular job does require a certain independence to do it properly Does it also require a certain intellectual integrity to do properly? Because claiming that you were "immediately fired" online, then later having to "clarify" that you actually submitted your resignation because some demands weren't met sounds pretty dishonest to me.

That is not an accurate description of events.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#106

Post by adamsea »

atsjie wrote: post #71
fatbird wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the academic standard for research, and the original motivation for tenure, allows for researchers to criticize anyone, including their own institution, as long as it's done and presented as the proper product of research. In other words, if a researcher is doing their research properly, it shouldn't matter if they're attacking their own institution or even colleagues, because it passes scientific muster and…

"Timnit Gebru: Google and big tech are 'institutionally racist'" https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-55281862 It's good to be critical and reflect on the company you're working for. There are bad cultures and attitudes in any big company, not just tech. But if you're going to sprout your opinions publically about your (ex)-employer like that, sorry, but I wouldn't want her in my team. She sounds like too much of a he…

> She sounds like too much of a headache to deal with.

Yeah and your average software engineer is roses.

Difference is engineers positively impact the bottom line and society is less tolerant (empirically researched fact) of pushback from women or people of color.

For sure there may be complications on both sides of this issue but let’s not pretend that this shit isn’t real.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#107

Post by guerrilla »

pontus wrote: post #99

My god, people need to calm down. I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. If their employer is knowingly engaging in illegal activity then by all means, be a whistle blower and set ultimatums, but this has gone too far. If you have a problem with the motivations of your employer or how it handles various sensitive issues then start preparing for interv…

> this has gone too far

Hardly. It's all part of the negotations. Leaving is just the resort. There's no reason not to protest before it gets to that point.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#108

Post by helen___keller »

tdfx wrote: post #84
ur-whale wrote: post #36

When you purposefully hire a whole group activists, be not surprised when they actually do activism.

Yeah, it's hard to have sympathy for Google on this one. It's literally corporate virtue signaling that's blowing up in their faces.

> corporate virtue signaling

Or, its more common name, PR

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#110

Post by motohagiography »

This issue reminds me a lot of what we do in security and privacy, which are ostensibly engineering disciplines, but are really technology governance functions. Ethical AI is also a governance function, and like hackers in security, there is an invisible yet stark limit to the value activists can provide in actual governance roles. Litigating demands is just not how governance gets done.

The irony of Google hiring so many smart people is that they get a cluster people who were institutionalized by academia, and now they have a CEO who has to act like an institutional dean.

Hackers hold your products to their standards, and ideally that adds value to your customers. Ethical AI people seem to do the same. The problem with both is that if you fail their purity tests, they will also sabotage your company because they're indexed on a greater good.

That the company is dealing with factions of what are essentially student activists issuing demands seems like an inflection point where any further growth is going to be a function of market domination and not their ability to align to make things.

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