Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#81

Post by croissants » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

TakuYam wrote: post #60

doubleunplussed wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is now in the official style guides of several major media outlets. It emphasises blackness as an identity, i.e. it is a proper noun, the name of an ethnic group, and not just an adjective describing their skin colour. I can't say I agree that society should be fracturing into more identities instead of fewer, or that people should strongly identify with their race, but that's the trend and that's we're at with…

Is blackness an identity though? I feels rather racist to diminish substantial cultural differences and experiences just because a group of people may have one common physical characteristic.

I'm far from an expert on this topic, but I believe the reasoning is that (at least in the USA), African-American ancestral links don't necessarily go back far enough to identify an ethnic group because of slavery. In the absence of the ability to say e.g. "I'm from the Yoruba people", the primary group identification just becomes Black. I agree that it seems kind of reductive from the outside, but I'm mostly inclined to let people decide their own names.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#82

Post by fabian2k » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #24

I have contempt for a lot of the things that Google does, but I have a sincere question about all of this. Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? I would say the same about Peter Norvig or Guido van Rossum. If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on?

Because this particular job does require a certain independence to do it properly. If business concerns would override and silence the Ethical AI team, then you might as well not have one in the first place. It would be purely a PR thing, which it well might have been after all.

Having someone that is known to speak their mind in such a team does lend it more credibility. But you also can't complain if they then speak their mind about things you would like them to shut up about.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#83

Post by AdamHede » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

shoo wrote: post #30

One thing I've wondered: what is the purpose of Google's ethical AI group? What utility does it provide to the corporation? I suspect the primary motivation for funding ethical AI work is _public relations_ (or less kindly, corporate propaganda) - to help mitigate damage to Google's brands and reputation by public concern surrounding artificial intelligence. It is well understood that it can be difficult to get someo…

A less synical conclusion would be that the longterm viability of a AI-centric company like Google benefits a lot of reasonable development in the early stages. If Google can avoid ethical hiccups it might provoke less regulation and provoke it later.

All else equal, being a reasonable and ethical company IS good business. Problems arise with ethics and business collide.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#84

Post by tdfx » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

ur-whale wrote: post #36

When you purposefully hire a whole group activists, be not surprised when they actually do activism.

Yeah, it's hard to have sympathy for Google on this one. It's literally corporate virtue signaling that's blowing up in their faces.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#85

Post by throwaway2245 » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #55

shoo wrote: post #30

One thing I've wondered: what is the purpose of Google's ethical AI group? What utility does it provide to the corporation? I suspect the primary motivation for funding ethical AI work is _public relations_ (or less kindly, corporate propaganda) - to help mitigate damage to Google's brands and reputation by public concern surrounding artificial intelligence. It is well understood that it can be difficult to get someo…

Doesn't the obvious, honest answer make the most sense? Someone in Google management doesn't want their products acting unethically - merely because it is unethical?

This makes a lot of sense to me in the way you have said it.

The department probably exists in the first place as a result of an internal political struggle and compromise - with some decision-makers wanting Google to be genuinely more ethical, and others wanting to avoid any genuine oversight.

As a result, you have this bodge solution where the department gets to exist (helped by the PR benefit as mentioned elsewhere), but not to act independently. Anyone in the department offering genuine oversight is at risk of being forced out.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#86

Post by free_rms » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

fabian2k wrote: post #82

tomcam wrote: post #24

I have contempt for a lot of the things that Google does, but I have a sincere question about all of this. Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? I would say the same about Peter Norvig or Guido van Rossum. If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on?

Because this particular job does require a certain independence to do it properly. If business concerns would override and silence the Ethical AI team, then you might as well not have one in the first place. It would be purely a PR thing, which it well might have been after all. Having someone that is known to speak their mind in such a team does lend it more credibility. But you also can't complain if they then spea…

The paper she was fired over was leaked, though, and it's.. not novel.

It's the same things everyone else has been saying for years (global warming bad, also don't build a racist speech reproducer), and Google wanted her to reference their efforts to mitigate those things in addition to repeating yet again that they can happen. Self-serving? Sure, but not really censorship and honestly would make the paper better to include analysis of mitigations.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#87

Post by bonoboTP » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

bzb6 wrote: post #76

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was, yes. Public statements she made before getting fired include: > A Black woman can't survive around here doing any type of research let alone research thats designed to make those in the majority uncomfortable. And guess who can apparently unilaterally order you to do things without even thinking you're someone they should converse with. ( https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1331757629996109824 ) > [The VPs…

A black woman? How is she black?

She's Eritrean-born and identifies as Black. Races aren't an exact science but social constructs. There's a gradual continuum in people's appearance along geographical areas, linking Sub-Saharan west Africa where most slaves were taken from in the Atlantic slave trade, to East Africa, to North Africa and the Middle East, to the Mediterranean coast, to central Europe to Scandinavia to Siberia to Central Asia to East Asia to Inuits to Native Americans etc. No sharp borders.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#88

Post by hnxs » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

thenightcrawler wrote: post #27

spicyramen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience teams with little work have time to do this "activism"

man, this is her own team, this isn't some abstract very removed issue , this people she worked with advocating for her.

maybe her departure affects their promo cycles

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#89

Post by bo1024 » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

justforfunhere wrote: post #67

What kind of day to day work someone in an Ethical AI group would do?

Most of them are full time researchers publishing papers. For example someone might do a study on facial recognition accuracy on different ethnic groups and how that impacts user experience or other disparate impact of automated systems.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#90

Post by salawat » Thu, Dec 17, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

free_rms wrote: post #86

fabian2k wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this particular job does require a certain independence to do it properly. If business concerns would override and silence the Ethical AI team, then you might as well not have one in the first place. It would be purely a PR thing, which it well might have been after all. Having someone that is known to speak their mind in such a team does lend it more credibility. But you also can't complain if they then spea…

The paper she was fired over was leaked, though, and it's.. not novel. It's the same things everyone else has been saying for years (global warming bad, also don't build a racist speech reproducer), and Google wanted her to reference their efforts to mitigate those things in addition to repeating yet again that they can happen. Self-serving? Sure, but not really censorship and honestly would make the paper better to…

>Google wanted her to reference their efforts to mitigate those things in addition to repeating yet again that they can happen. Self-serving? Sure, but not really censorship.

You have a really funny world-view where compelled speech doesn't fall in the censorship bucket.