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Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

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Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an editorial style that some publications (including CNN) are adopting in service of racial sensitivity. CNN has mandated that all staff must capitalize both "Black" and "White" [1]: > Both words denote a racial or ethnic identity and therefore should be upper case when referring to a person, community, culture, etc., in the same way CNN capitalizes other descriptors of race, ethnicity and shared identity, inclu…

At least CNN is being consistent. NY Times is capitalizing Black but not White, and they seem to be using tortured logic in my opinion to explain the discrepancy: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/05/insider/capitalized-black...

I was surprised that so many NYT reader comments (including almost all of the 'NYT Picks' comments) disagree with the decision.

I read the NYT comments somewhat regularly and cannot recall ever seeing such a high proportion of the highlighted comments criticizing the NYT's position.

I give the NYT credit for highlighting these many critical comments, which appear to reflect the sentiment of the 'Reader Picks' comments as well.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#62
> The demands in the letter include the removal of a Google vice president, Megan Kacholia, from the team's management chain; for transparency surrounding Gebru's departure; and for Google's head of AI, Jeff Dean, and Kacholia to apologize for how Gebru was treated.

I would like to know which role played Kacholia in this. Just a scapegoat for management or was she directly involved?

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#63
post #40
post #24

I have contempt for a lot of the things that Google does, but I have a sincere question about all of this. Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? I would say the same about Peter Norvig or Guido van Rossum. If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on?

Because the academic standard for research, and the original motivation for tenure, allows for researchers to criticize anyone, including their own institution, as long as it's done and presented as the proper product of research. In other words, if a researcher is doing their research properly, it shouldn't matter if they're attacking their own institution or even colleagues, because it passes scientific muster and…

You’re 100% right. A job at a FAANG company isn’t a tenured position. Let her go get a job at Harvard and trash them all she wants.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#64
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12/200000 = .006%, so I guess I over-estimated how many people signed.

Why would you expect people outside her team to sign? Would you respect their opinions if they did?

Because it would indicate wider support within the company I assume.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#65
post #30

One thing I've wondered: what is the purpose of Google's ethical AI group? What utility does it provide to the corporation? I suspect the primary motivation for funding ethical AI work is _public relations_ (or less kindly, corporate propaganda) - to help mitigate damage to Google's brands and reputation by public concern surrounding artificial intelligence. It is well understood that it can be difficult to get someo…

Without actually knowing the history, I think it's probably stupidly conceived. We seem to generally imagine that the biggest problem or challenge with AI is ethics because we frame ethics as being largely rooted in something emotional, like empathy or compassion, and not logic. The movie I, Robot explores what happens when "logic" is taken to its logical outcome by an AI. It posits a robot with feelings as the antid…

I love this take but it's way too over-thought. As is the PR explanation.

I'd be willing to bet some money on it being simply the result of some employees saying, "AI ethics is super important. We feel strongly there should be people working on AI ethics to make sure it's not racist or sexist". And anyone who objected was yelled at with words to the effect of, "are you saying ethics isn't important? do you not care about ethics?" until opposition was silenced and management felt it was a small sop to quiet the ranks.

The right approach to this would have been to say to those advocating for it the following:

"Ethics is of course tremendously important. That's why we carefully select our workforce and insist on the highest ethical standards from everyone, in their work. Ethics is not something that can be compartmentalised or delegated to a separate team. Ethics underlies all we do. If you see something you believe might be unethical, please raise it with your manager so it can be resolved company wide. Until then, return to work."

Creating a dedicated ethics team was a dumb idea because it can only possibly end like this: you hire people and tell them "your job is to ensure we are ethical" and they're not going to sit back and say, you know boss, I sniffed around and everything seemed above board. Nothing for me to do here right now. I'll check back in a month. Of course they're going to see unethical stuff everywhere they look, regardless of merit. Their salary literally depends on it.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#66

> accepted her resignation immediately In saying "resignation", CNN is presenting the management framing -- as many people have pointed out, she was fired. Bloomberg states both sides of that: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-16/google-ai... As does The Verge: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/7/22158501/timnit-gebru-tea...

I have no idea why this matters. Timnit gave an ultimatum (i.e. do this or I'll leave). Google agreed to her condition of parting way. This is like I go to my boss and ask for a $1 billion dollars. Otherwise, I'll leave. Then, my boss decides that I should leave since the boss can't give me $1b. Then, I keep telling my friends that "well, I'm actually fired.". huh?

I understand it as the issue is whether this was constructive dismissal, a form of firing where the employee is forced to resign.

Not sure if constructive dismissal is a thing in the US but it is in the UK.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without actually knowing the history, I think it's probably stupidly conceived. We seem to generally imagine that the biggest problem or challenge with AI is ethics because we frame ethics as being largely rooted in something emotional, like empathy or compassion, and not logic. The movie I, Robot explores what happens when "logic" is taken to its logical outcome by an AI. It posits a robot with feelings as the antid…

I love this take but it's way too over-thought. As is the PR explanation. I'd be willing to bet some money on it being simply the result of some employees saying, "AI ethics is super important. We feel strongly there should be people working on AI ethics to make sure it's not racist or sexist". And anyone who objected was yelled at with words to the effect of, "are you saying ethics isn't important? do you not care a…

I'd be willing to bet some money on it being simply the result of some employees saying, "AI ethics is super important. We feel strongly there should be people working on AI ethics to make sure it's not racist or sexist".

Oh, no doubt. But that scenario would be rooted in this larger context of how we generally relate to this topic.

Creating a dedicated ethics team was a dumb idea because it can only possibly end like this

I agree, which is why I say "it's probably stupidly conceived."

I find social stuff fascinating and I've had the following college classes: Intro to Psychology; Social Psychology; Negotiation and Conflict Management. I also raised two fairly Aspie-ish sons and I've had to explain social things to them in very exacting terms, which forced me to really up my game on being precise in order for it to be useful to them. My sons and I still look for things that meet our rigorous standards for "How do you know that's actually accurate?" because social phenomenon are inherently hard to test: People behave differently when they know "This is a test. This is only a test." than they do in real life (which is why I think UBI experiments are useless: These people know the study will end and the money will stop rolling in, so it doesn't tell you how people would really behave if we really instituted a UBI).

Anyway, I find social stuff fascinating and people routinely interpret my social observations as being ethical or moral judgements and I get this reputation for being a real judgy bitch, basically, even though I"m a lot less judgy than most people. But when push comes to shove, "ethics" is generally about determining which behaviors protect one or both of two things: individuals from group abuse or groups from individual abuse ("tragedy of the commons" type stuff et al).

So when I talk about what works or what doesn't, in some sense I am talking about ethics, but I'm usually not trying to be some kind of moralizing priss, which is how that gets interpreted. I'm usually trying to say something like "Objectively speaking, you can't be both heavy and light at the same time. That fundamentally doesn't parse." and then someone is all up in arms about "Don't talk about my momma!!!! grrrrr!" type stuff.

So I feel strongly that what they really were probably wanting to study is "How do we do AI well in ways that interact with this social stuff like racism?" and out popped the word ethics because that's how people think of that. And it was a terrible idea on the face of it because of the inherent assumption of judgment rather than a more objective framing about studying AI and social phenomenon and how does that work? When you start using AI to do things like parse faces, what are the practical pain points there that we need to be aware of and try to address?

But I think most people can't readily separate that out in that way, which is part of why I am so often in hot water for saying "Well, actually, I think that simply doesn't work because...." And when I say that about social phenomenon, I am often de facto talking about "human ethics" whether I want to be or not and it's very often a giant pile of manure that I've just stepped into.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#70
post #40
post #24

I have contempt for a lot of the things that Google does, but I have a sincere question about all of this. Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? I would say the same about Peter Norvig or Guido van Rossum. If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on?

Because the academic standard for research, and the original motivation for tenure, allows for researchers to criticize anyone, including their own institution, as long as it's done and presented as the proper product of research. In other words, if a researcher is doing their research properly, it shouldn't matter if they're attacking their own institution or even colleagues, because it passes scientific muster and…

Google didn't fire her for her research, they fired her for being toxic. She was toxic because some of her coworkers didn't accept her research, but most people would have handled the situation without being toxic and if she did she wouldn't have gotten fired.
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