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Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

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Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#111
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice folks getting starry-eyed in the face of these big numbers. But if you look at how that money is allocated, it won't be very good for anyone except those who are milking this crisis for all they can. The bill needs to be much bigger to have any considerable impact. Remember -- the economy only works if people are spending money, and people are only spending money when they have money in their pockets . Trick…

Dont move the goal post.

Excuse me? The goal post has been moved so far already by the Republicans and you're tut-tutting this perspective?

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Class warfare is pointless. Businesses are shuttering. Sure, make accusations of fraud (do you have any proof?) - but those expenses can't be frivolous unless you want a huge issue with the IRS. Should relief be so strict and policed (its own cost) or should it be flexible for businesses that may have had to build outdoor accomodations?

> Class warfare is pointless. The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false. As, for that matter, does the (arguably modest, but still very real) progress of the working class from the height of the system first described as “capitalism” in the late 19th and early 20th…

>The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false.

Name me a socialist/communist gov that did any better. Each implementation grew the class divides even more. So far China, I would say, is the most economically viable model due to their opening to international market practice. However, the party still controls it and divvies out the work to a select few. Their social credit system helps them determine who is more worthy by putting people in different categories... oh wait that's just a class system with extra steps.

It's not a capitalist fault. It's a human fault. We've done it for not hundreds of years, but thousands upon thousands. Long before Adam's or Marx parents were a twinkle in anyone's nethers. Finding a scapegoat for problems you dont quite understand and refuse to research beyond a 10min youtube cartoon does not constitute as good logic.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You combined a source with a follow-up statement that appears nowhere in that article and is factually incorrect. I don't know where you came up with your made up number of $22,000, but this isn't some big conspiracy, what is forgivable is directly viewable in the SBA's PPP Loan Forgiveness Application: https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/PPP%20Loan%2...

The 22,000 number is off of the original caps per employee. 2.5 months of salary capped at $100,000 = 21,000. I misremembered the number. As for forgiveness, the forgiveness is part of the latest, yet to be passed, bill. My point is that PPP loans were sold as something, and are now being revised to be not that all, for the benefit of employers and not employees. >While until the SBA issues revisions to that IFR the…

They were a bad idea from the get go, and calling them loans was a scam - they were handouts.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#115
post #70

I wonder how anyone at all expected this to turn out. So, businesses had to stop operating. GDP and income earned and spent, dropped. This by definition results in someone becoming poor - with or without bailout - the government does not have any of "its own" money - all money it can possibly distribute is taken from taxpayer's pockets. Call me cynical, but people working in the service industry were the safest ones…

> the government does not have any of "its own" money - all money it can possibly distribute is taken from taxpayer's pockets This is absolutely not the case. The government owns and operates a mint, and we haven't been on the gold standard since Nixon. There is no zero-sum double-entry accounting when it comes to sovereign fiat currencies. If you analyze the monetary policy of the federal government like it's a fami…

I'm glad the left has moved right on over to "money doesn't exist." That'll end well.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#116
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who were you planning to staff all of your temporary hospitals with?

So you are saying our hospital beds and staff are fixed immutable resources and that in an emergency all other variables must be sacrificed in order to not exceed those fixed immutable resources?

I don't recall saying that, no. I'd wager that nobody would seriously say that, since it's obviously false.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#117
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Florida, Texas, and Sweden seem to be doing fine enough.

Tell that to the ICU nurses and doctors in Florida who have to code several people a day due to Covid...

Tell that to the family that lost their job and is now homeless. Tell that to the people who've lost love ones to suicide, overdose, alcoholism. (see I can be snarky and unhelpful, too)

The broader point is that it's not clear that lockdowns are beneficial or necessary. They have real costs. Nobody is talking about how we weigh those costs and benefits. And despite the lockdowns, California still has a swamped medical system.

To move the conversation forward: people will never give up their sacred cows. The lockdowns were never about COVID, they're about control and rewarding political allies. Texas tried to ban abortion. California tried to ban religion. And nobody cares if the lockdowns work or not.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#118
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use to believe in UBI, but I think introducing UBI now would be an absolutely and complete disaster. UBI makes sense if there is zero resource scarcity. If we had working Fission reactors and were pulling asteroids into orbit to mine, it might make sense. I think UBI implemented now would turn into the "Basic" seen in The Expanse books. We'd just see people with no incentives continue down the road of poverty.

Yours is a Randian analysis and it has been the sole argument from Republicans for not giving people UBI. What do you think about the concept of "trickle-up economics"?

>Yours is a Randian analysis and it has been the sole argument from Republicans for not giving people UBI.

>What do you think about the concept of "trickle-up economics"?

I'd argue that significantly enhancing the social safety net, significantly increasing minimum wages and, most importantly, providing strong incentives toward reduced incomes at the very high end, would provides significant long term economic advantages.

Why do I say this? For a variety of reasons:

1. >70% of US GDP is consumer spending. Increasing the amount and number of folks with discretionary income will boost demand significantly;

2. Enhancing the social safety net would encourage innovation and entrepreneurship. When you have an idea that you want to develop, but most folks don't even have a few hundred dollars available in an emergency will stop those folks from doing so -- In the current environment, unless there's immediate success, it's likely that such a person, and their family, will be sleeping rough and eating out of garbage cans pretty soon. With a robust social safety net, those folks can pursue their entrepreneurial ideas without worrying about starving in the street;

3. Incentivizing lower incomes at the very high end, via income taxes (cf. the 1950s), write offs for new business formation/development and other, similar incentives can boost employment, new business creation and focus resources on an ecosystem of smaller companies with real competition in many (if not most) industries;

4. Raising wages at the low end dovetails nicely with (1) above. Spreading wealth more widely (I am emphatically not suggesting forced wealth redistribution) among the population won't harm those at the top. How many houses, cars, dishwashers, pizza pies, miniskirts, throw rugs, yachts, toaster ovens, ball gags, window fans, telephones, snow globes, etc., etc., etc. can one family reasonably buy/use? Significantly increasing the incomes of those at the bottom will increase demand for all manner of products and services, strengthening the broader economy over the long term.

5. Finally, I'll wonder out loud how much "poorer" or "worse off" someone earning $5,000,000/annum is vs. someone earning $15,000,000/annum?

Having wealth/income more widely distributed across the population would create a stronger, more resilient economy over the long term -- one which would benefit those at the top and the bottom -- and lead to significantly better outcomes for everyone over the long term.

I'd note note that my reasoning doesn't include any arguments for "socialism." Rather, every single one focuses on how to strengthen and enhance a society and economy based on market principles.

Feel free to disagree, as I'm sure many of you will. I'd be interested to hear your arguments and will attempt to respond thoughtfully.

Edit: Fixed numbering.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#119
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who were you planning to staff all of your temporary hospitals with?

So you are saying our hospital beds and staff are fixed immutable resources and that in an emergency all other variables must be sacrificed in order to not exceed those fixed immutable resources?

At some point, you're experiencing runway problems. 9 women can't produce a baby in a month, after all.

They can, however, collectively produce 9 babies, 9 months after the start date.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Class warfare is pointless. The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false. As, for that matter, does the (arguably modest, but still very real) progress of the working class from the height of the system first described as “capitalism” in the late 19th and early 20th…

>The position of the capitalist class, built on successful class warfare first against the pre-capitalist aristocracy and then against the working classes within capitalism, proves this to be false. Name me a socialist/communist gov that did any better. Each implementation grew the class divides even more. So far China, I would say, is the most economically viable model due to their opening to international market pr…

Most socialist Scandinavian countries are doing better than the US by most measures of societal wellness (life expectancy, divorce rates, crime, etc).
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