Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer • Hacker News Board

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#91

Post by ant6n » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #61

slg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the state and local governments. The federal government didn't force any businesses to close. The state and local government had to act entirely because the federal government had no real plan. Someone is going to fill the decision making vacuum, but it is a problem when the people making the decisions don't have the financial power to make the right decision.…

You appear to be laboring under a misconception. The responsibility to act on public health measures has always been primarily at the state and local levels. Under our federal system, the federal government doesn't even really have legal authority to order lockdown measures. Granted the federal response has been an appalling mix of corruption and incompetence, but the federal role is mostly just advisory anyway. Stat…

The argument isn’t about power in the sense of authority, but power in the sense of having the tools to control the situation.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#92

Post by calcifer » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

hypervisorxxx wrote: post #39

The other thing not being mentioned is alot of families who could never afford to buy homes can now buy homes. It has also allowed alot of people to move into nicer areas of NYC that could not afford to before. Alot of people's quality of life has increased, and alot of people who lost their income on paper also lost their requirement to pay rent and avoid being evicted or just moved into their parents homes. There a…

> None of this is reflected in the article.

Well, you haven't supported any of your claims with data, unlike the article.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#93

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #71

t-writescode wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given a virus that requires hospitalization at a certain rate, there is a certain point where the hospitals end up overrun for all other activities. In an effort to stave off that danger, local governments enacted lockdowns with the intent of reducing the spread of the virus. The virus, in the United States, has an established death rate of around 1.5% and a hospitalization rate higher than that. It also experiences…

We had months and months to build temporary hospitals... Why didn't we?

We, in many places, did.

Federally, there was no strategy because federal powers were devoted to promoting the pandemic (e.g., via the Defense Production Act invocation to shield the meat packing industry from state safety efforts) rather than fighting it.

OTOH, hospitals also require skilled staff, which takes longer to build.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#94

Post by uoaei » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #79

This is a real and serious problem and I wish people would take it more seriously. The actual solution is addressing the barriers to work created by Covid. I actively promoted the local Little Caesar's. At one point, they had so little business they were afraid they would go out of business, but they are unusually well-positioned to move to less risk of infection because they already had a pizza portal, it just wasn'…

Do you live in a rural place with a small, connected community? That's the only way your "promotions" would have had any impact. I find it hard to believe that posting on social media single-handedly saved that business. I find it much more likely that people started getting more acquainted with the new reality of the pandemic and after re-budgeting started buying food at places where you get lots of calories for cheap (like Little Caesar's).

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#95

Post by purple_ferret » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #47

purple_ferret wrote: post #29

Yet the rich get richer as Congress passes 'relief' plans that allow the wealthy to sneak massive chunks of cash directly into their pockets. Here's just one example: "According to the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB), about 85% of all the approved Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loans were for less than $150,000...The bipartisan bill holds the intention of automatically forgiving loans of less th…

It seems correct as a matter of policy to not earmark PPP loans directly to employee wages. We don't want to set up a scenario where a bunch of small businesses fail the instant the PPP ends because they haven't been paying the bills.

You can debate it, but the reality is paying businesses to pay employees was what the PPP loans were sold as. And it was sold with a lot of exploitable flaws under the premise that it would ultimately help employees from getting laid off.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#96

Post by umvi » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #74

umvi wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had months and months to build temporary hospitals... Why didn't we?

Who were you planning to staff all of your temporary hospitals with?

So you are saying our hospital beds and staff are fixed immutable resources and that in an emergency all other variables must be sacrificed in order to not exceed those fixed immutable resources?

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#97

Post by uoaei » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

khalilravanna wrote: post #75

est31 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a link for real estate prices going down? From what I saw it was mainly the rents that decreased.

Not directly in line with OP’s comment but interest rates are stupidly low right now. Wouldn’t surprise me if this enables a lot of people to buy homes. I know several people (late 20s, early 30s Boston area) who have bought homes recently and I myself am refinancing.

Interest rates don't mean anything if the down payment (or requirements for a loan) are still high for new buyers.

Interest rates only matter if you already have money. Most people don't.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#98

Post by lumost » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

save_ferris wrote: post #10

3minus1 wrote: post #5

I heard this on NPR recently and was really moved by it [1]. Recommend reading the whole thing. > You know me. I'm in your friendship circle, hidden in plain sight. My clothes are still impeccable, bought in the good years when I was still making money. To look at me, you would not know that my electricity was cut off last week for non-payment or that I meet the eligibility requirements for food stamps. But if you pa…

The fear of "looking poor" is so real in the US, which makes it harder to see who's struggling. It also creates this cognitive dissonance I've noticed here on HN where an article gets posted with pictures of the extended lines at food banks and people point out that most people seem to be driving relatively new cars, therefore why are they in line at a food bank? I think a lot of people don't understand how poverty r…

cars made in the last 15 years don’t look that different from each other. You can purchase a 7-8 yo mass market vehicle for 2-6k that will run alright.

Having used cars older than that as a daily driver, the cost of repairs/downtime outstrip the cost of replacing the vehicle more often than not. Not driving isn’t really an option in the US, and driving a clunker will raise some flags to coworkers/other parents in the parking lot.

The other cash poor option is to grab a lease with good incentives, it’s a terrible deal - but it’s the best if you need to conserve cash flow month to month ( particularly if you can’t afford fixing a breakdown )

Which is all to say, if your poor - driving a half broken down car would be a terrible investment.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#99

Post by slg » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #61

slg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the state and local governments. The federal government didn't force any businesses to close. The state and local government had to act entirely because the federal government had no real plan. Someone is going to fill the decision making vacuum, but it is a problem when the people making the decisions don't have the financial power to make the right decision.…

You appear to be laboring under a misconception. The responsibility to act on public health measures has always been primarily at the state and local levels. Under our federal system, the federal government doesn't even really have legal authority to order lockdown measures. Granted the federal response has been an appalling mix of corruption and incompetence, but the federal role is mostly just advisory anyway. Stat…

Where in my comment did I say the federal government should have enacted a national lockdown? My complaint was the lack of a real plan. They left the states to fend for themselves without the level of guidance, coordination, or financial support that was needed for a proper response.

>State governments have the power to pay people to stay home. They might have to shift funding from other areas or raise taxes in order to do so.

Most states are run on a deficit and several states are already near bankruptcy. There simply isn't a capability at the state level to have the type of financial response that is possible at the federal level with its ability to print money.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#100

Post by sparrish » Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 6:53 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #14

war1025 wrote: post #2

Who would have guessed that kneecapping the service industry would be bad for the service sector?

Dead customers aren’t that much better for the service industry.

Some dead customers is much better than zero customers.