Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers • Hacker News Board

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#101

Post by elefanten » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #56

01100011 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I think the resistance to reparations comes from folks like me who don't see a reason we should pay anything. Most of my ancestors are German immigrants to the northeast US who arrived after slavery was abolished. The remainder were poor Scotts Irish who continued to live in poverty in northern Appalachia. I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all…

A reparations law suit would most likely involve a court of law in which victims and benificiaries are identified, damages are calculated, and assets change hands. This fantasy where you just have to give up your personal property for no good reason is just a fantasy. It's not the way the law works. There will be a reason, it will be documented by a trail of papers and professional judges and attorneys will agree tha…

How does this work when no one alive today stole any of the property? When none of the people it was stolen from are alive?

What is the (broadly consistent) legal doctrine for expropriating living people's property on the basis of their ancestors sins?

How do you draw the line around legitimate grounds for litigating a criminal grievance from the past? How do you establish the appropriate damages?

I ask these important contextualizing questions not to imply that reparation aren't possible or are necessarily a bad idea, but rather to illustrate that the attitude of "this is easy, just do the obvious thing" is not going to be sufficient here. And when the comment begins with asserted speculation about what enacting reparations "would most likely" involve... I get very suspicious.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#102

Post by chordalkeyboard » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

generalizations wrote: post #12

thegrim33 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that every civilization that has ever existed has both enslaved others and been enslaved in the past, right? Where do your reparations end? Are you going to forcefully take money from me because African Americans were enslaved generations ago, but then forcefully have money taken from them for the other Africans and other races they themselves enslaved in Africa before that? Where does it end? Do you h…

I'm also curious how far back these reparations are supposed to go, and where exactly the responsibility is supposed to lie. Should the people who 'employed' the slaves be responsible, or should the people who enslaved and sold them also be considered at fault? If the second, then note a lot of slaves were initially captured and sold to white slavers by their own kind. [1] [1] http://www.understandingslavery.com/inde…

> I'm also curious how far back these reparations are supposed to go, and where exactly the responsibility is supposed to lie. Should the people who 'employed' the slaves be responsible, or should the people who enslaved and sold them also be considered at fault?

All those people are dead. The only entities left to sue are legal entities that aren't natural persons.

> If the second, then note a lot of slaves were initially captured and sold to white slavers by their own kind.

Then governments, corporations, etc. in Africa and Europe can be held to the same standard.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#103

Post by UncleMeat » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

01100011 wrote: post #34

iaHN wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a pervasive fear that admitting that the US owes the descendants of slaves something could potentially validate the complaints black people have about other issues in America. See the posts about Timnit Gebru for comments depicting the demands of black people as "too disruptive".

Really? I think the resistance to reparations comes from folks like me who don't see a reason we should pay anything. Most of my ancestors are German immigrants to the northeast US who arrived after slavery was abolished. The remainder were poor Scotts Irish who continued to live in poverty in northern Appalachia. I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all…

There are a large number of varied proposals for reparations, many of which do not involve collecting money from all white citizens. I think the knee-jerk resistance to the idea based on wanting to watch your own wallet is just that: a knee-jerk response.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#104

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

joshxyz wrote: post #97

Mindblowing this was just 220+ years ago, like even the Egyptian Greek Roman Mongolian Chinese Japanese Spanish empires, always blows my fucking mind how much better our conditions are right now.

There's likely more slaves now than then. We are doing better on the percentage but doing just as much or more collective harm.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#105

Post by chordalkeyboard » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

seph-reed wrote: post #15

generalizations wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also curious how far back these reparations are supposed to go, and where exactly the responsibility is supposed to lie. Should the people who 'employed' the slaves be responsible, or should the people who enslaved and sold them also be considered at fault? If the second, then note a lot of slaves were initially captured and sold to white slavers by their own kind. [1] [1] http://www.understandingslavery.com/inde…

Well, doing something like this right would obviously be a big discussion. But IMO, if we can figure out how much time/money was stolen and who benefitted the most from it, we can start to have some idea of what's fair. I'm a big fan of UBI as well, and it'd make a lot of sense to have the ancestors of slaves be the first to get onto UBI. But, obviously, this is a group decision and should be based off logic and reco…

> I'm a big fan of UBI as well, and it'd make a lot of sense to have the ancestors* of slaves be the first to get onto UBI. But, obviously, this is a group decision and should be based off logic and records; not feelings.

*descendants

The same issues that make UBI a bad idea will probably preclude the individual payment approach to reparations

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#106

Post by dsohn0 » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

godmode2019 wrote: post #48

I have a pretty good idea, its about investing in Africa. America has a lot of assets, in the black population, they should encourage people to visit their homeland, on a paid trip. Helping the African economy and helping African Americans create business connects to Africa. Then there should be a programme where African Americans get a lump sum, if they start a business or invest in land in Africa. France is doing s…

How about we stop treating black different because they are black? Is that in the year 2020 too much to fucking ask for? Why would we subsidize African Americans investing in Africa but not white Americans? Racist nonsense.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#107

Post by bsanr2 » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

tasogare wrote: post #77

rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black Americans typically have deeper roots in the United States than white Americans: https://news.gallup.com/poll/4621/majority-americans-identif... > Black Americans are more likely than either whites or Hispanics to be the third generation Americans. Seventy-five percent of black Americans indicate they are at least the third generation born in the United States, compared to 58% of whites and 13% of Hispanics.

Those numbers are very hard to believe. I bet most if not 100% Hispanics have American ancestry going back before pre-Colombian times while literally 0% of White and Black have such roots.

Black Americans whose families go back far enough have substantial Native American ancestry, actually, having been treated similarly as an underclass during the early years of English/Dutch colonization of North America. It's harder to find connections because of anti-miscegenation and one-drop rule laws and customs, and the relative nascence of reliable genetic testing (which themselves may be misleading due to their reliance on statistical proximity to controls).

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#108

Post by chordalkeyboard » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:32 AM UTC

seph-reed wrote: post #23

thegrim33 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that every civilization that has ever existed has both enslaved others and been enslaved in the past, right? Where do your reparations end? Are you going to forcefully take money from me because African Americans were enslaved generations ago, but then forcefully have money taken from them for the other Africans and other races they themselves enslaved in Africa before that? Where does it end? Do you h…

The following is all just an opinion, and obviously this type of subject is a discussion. Doubly so because I'm white. I don't think anyone should pay any more than they benefitted from slavery. The average person has no ancestors who owned slaves, and the only benefits they got were things like cheaper goods and services. Added up over a lifetime, it's probably not a lot. But some people come from ancestors who made…

> The average person has no ancestors who owned slaves, and the only benefits they got were things like cheaper goods and services. Added up over a lifetime, it's probably not a lot.

The average person benefitted from compound accumulation of capital. After hundreds of years of compound interest, its probably unfathomably large.

> But some people come from ancestors who made a LOT of money off slavery, and the benefits of that have been passed down to them one way or another.

If those people can be identified then someone may lodge a claim against their assets. From what I learned in Black World Studies, the fruits of slavery are largely considered to have been spread through society in a way that can't be traced and reconstructed because everything is tainted.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#109

Post by throwaway535 » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:33 AM UTC

OptionX wrote: post #90

throwaway535 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not clear that reparations are a good idea in practice, or something to be "achieved," or even strived for (they might do more harm in practice to the group they intend to protect, This is a very patronizing argument. If someone breaks into your bank account and steals your cash, then later is caught. There is no valid line of reasoning that goes "well I'll only give the money back if you tell me how you plan…

Well, by your own analogy. If both you and the robber have been dead for 300+ years would it make sense to make the robbers family pay your descendants for it? Keep in mind none of the people had contact with anyone remotely involved with the original robbery or had any way to influence it or impact it. Should the sons pay for the sins of the fathers? Pretty sure I could find someone in your ancestral line that commi…

Great discussion, let's continue.

So my dad goes and steals your dad's land. He give me the land as his son. I split it in half and give half to a friend of mine. The investigation occurs and determine this land was stolen and should be returned. I don't think the argument of, "sorry won't return it because I didn't steal it, my dad did" holds much water. Nor the argument of, "nope I won't return it because a friend of mine that has nothing to do with the theft is benefiting from it" holds much water either as reasons for your family to not get their land returned.

And related, possession of stolen goods is a fairly common legal concept. Regardless of penalty, at minimum once discovered the goods are returned, even if they'd previously be sold or given to someone else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods#Uni...

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#110

Post by zozbot234 » Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 2:43 AM UTC

throwaway535 wrote: post #92

D895n9o33436N42 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an immigrant, and I’ll never stand for any kind of reparations for descendants of former slaves. Invariably this will come out of tax dollars to which I’m contributing by way of income tax. Why should I be charged for wrongs - however horrible - in which neither myself nor my ancestors were involved? When there was still slavery in America, my people were enslaving members of their own ethnic group back in the ol…

> I’m an immigrant, and I’ll never stand for any kind of reparations for descendants of former slaves. Invariably this will come out of tax dollars to which I’m contributing by way of income tax. Why should I be charged for wrongs - however horrible - in which neither myself nor my ancestors were involved? Why should you be a contributor to the wrongs of this country's past? Simple, because you are a member/resident…

Slavery was not in the least a contribution to "financial success". It was very much a dysfunctional and failing system, for reasons that were made clear even by Adam Smith, who wrote in 1776 - and that are agreed upon by modern economists. What it did was create a huge unfair advantage for the few who could afford to "own" someone who had been enslaved - but that never translated to region-wide progress. Indeed, the part of the U.S. where slavery was widespread is still the most unequal today and the one with the most uninclusive, regressive, extractive culture and institutions (despite a very real change in outlook during the 1980s), and that's no coincidence.

'Slavery made economic sense' is a narrative that, until recently, you would only have heard from the likes of "Black-Israelite" conspiracy peddlers. Let's not give credence to such unscientific and misleading claims.