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Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

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Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#61
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One would also do well to remember that Norway has a population of 5m, vs US at 325m. Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). The United States is operating at a scale that may break the Norwegian system. I don’t know that it would, but let’s see the Norwegian system work at five times the size (25m) before even entertaining the idea that it would work at 65 times the…

[deleted]

>I’m always amused by how fixated Americans (even liberals) are on race in this matter. America is very diverse when it comes to ethnicities but it has a strong program of secular-national indoctrination, which results in a very homogenous culture considering its size.

Race in this case shows up because the mind wants to find an explanation for the discrepancy in social and public trust. Norwegians trust their institutions much more than Americans do. We also know that public trust was higher until the US's "lost decade" in the '70s and figure it probably depends on some factors that have been recently changing.

We look for instinctive, emotional explanations because we're interested in "forcing functions": it's not interesting to say that low-quality government caused by low-trust society leads to low-trust society because that postulates a universal dynamical property of social trust that doesn't really distinguish between societies. The hysteria surrounding the presidency of Barack Obama and the reputational endurance of a tyrant who came into the political limelight spreading ludicrous conspiracy theories about the same, in light of his significance as the first non-white POTUS, is one of many common-knowledge observations lending credence to the idea that racial resentment and mistrust drives an unwillingness to cooperate in American society. And then, of course, it's not really that easy to find truly well-run multiracial societies. Singapore and Israel have both invested in top-down integration and racial justice initiatives but resentment and discrimination stick around -- yet those are probably the best examples. Trinidad might be another example, but may be coasting on easy money from oil extraction.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#62

Back in 2002 there was a prison riot in the prison in the town I went to uni in. It was over the conditions. The conditions (room size, toilets, etc) were better than my first year accommodation. I of course was paying rent for the privilege.

You of course spent 23 hours per day locked in your accommodations as well right?

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#63
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are false premises, then show me some data to change my mind. https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/15/us/poll-finds-only-33-can...

[deleted]

Your article is irrelevant - and doesn't even support your claim. The article simply states that ordinary citizens have the least effect on policy creation (and they, self-admittedly, offer no data on how effective other participants are). Not that they have no effect. In fact, the purpose of a democratic republic is to provide protections against mob rule by limiting persons' individual effects. You are misinterpreting their study and misapplying it in your argument. Had your argument been valid, then you would be wasting your time anyways - why argue with people who have no effect (definition of a troll)?

So while individuals have relatively little effect on policy creation, you are completely leaving out their participation in policy execution - a major component of my argument. People can file complaints against bad officers or judges. People can file lawsuits when their rights have been infringed (look at policies that were enacted and the payouts against police departments in big cities). People can generate a combined effect on policy creation through voting. An easy way to view this would be to ask yourself what policy changes should take effect if one party or the other took full government control as this requires individual participation as voters and would likely lead to lawsuits against those new policies.

"I bet it makes software engineers in Seattle or SF feel very good about themselves when they can blame the woes of society on the median income household, but maybe you should try to go after people who actually have an impact."

You complain about invalid premises yet you engage in ad hominem fallacies? I wouldn't presume to know what devs in those areas think. I think it's also a stretch to claim that anyone is blaming the median income households - plenty of higher income people are ignorant of the problems as they are disproportionately unaffected.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#64

Author makes some big claims without much evidence. The poor conditions of US prisons, and lack of focus on rehabilitation is I think pretty well known for anyone who cares, along with the opposite reality for Nordic prisons. But you can't just throw your hands up and say, "money! corruption! racism!" and completely ignore that the American people asked for this system in response to rising crime waves. No matter how…

Rising crime waves are prevented by Nordic approaches to social welfare and economic safety nets, things Americans decry as socialist.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#65

Back in 2002 there was a prison riot in the prison in the town I went to uni in. It was over the conditions. The conditions (room size, toilets, etc) were better than my first year accommodation. I of course was paying rent for the privilege.

You of course spent 23 hours per day locked in your accommodations as well right?

And definitely had to choose between death or aligning with one of the gangs. Just like a fraternity.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#66

Back in 2002 there was a prison riot in the prison in the town I went to uni in. It was over the conditions. The conditions (room size, toilets, etc) were better than my first year accommodation. I of course was paying rent for the privilege.

You of course spent 23 hours per day locked in your accommodations as well right?

He seems to have majored in engineering, so yeah.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#67

Sentencing in Nordic countries is also much less than what you would expect for a similar crime in the US, there is no death penalty and the prison system is focused on reforming inmates and getting them back into society. Basically the exact opposite of the United States prison system.

Eliminate for profit prisons in this country.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average time served in the US for murder is less than that.

What is the average time served in the US? And how do you count death sentences?

I take your point about the death penalty but it's application is extremely if not unusually rare in the US. I think around 20 people were executed last year.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do have an affect though. They vote for the people who make the policies. Sure, they don’t directly vote on them, but they do cause it.

[deleted]

You are conveniently ignoring primaries, which tend to have more choices.

So you claim that businesses drive the candidates and that it's a problem? If that is really the case, then you are arguing against yourself. The true power is people being able to vote and to create their own parties (protected in numerous laws and court decisions). Then the poor candidate choices would be the result of ignorance on the part of the citizens in not self organizing or seeing what is going on.

"business interests and a couple of large political parties"

Who comprises these institutions? People!

"But some people are just too comfortable to understand such things."

Your arguments would be more effective if you focused on creating coherent arguments rather than consistently engaging in ad hominem attacks.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historica…

Is there actually a disparity in crime? Or just a reported one? If police believe blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they pay more attention to them and the cycle repeats.

That's why the homicide rate is used for such comparisons. It's unaffected by overpolicing, and can't be swept under the rug either.
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