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Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

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Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is. You think that the root issue is the majority of people who (according to you) have no idea how the system works, and thus are not at all involved in the system itself? How on earth does that make sense?

Yes. There’s many examples of people who wanted the absolute worst for criminals, but once someone they care about goes to prison, they change their tune pretty quickly. People don’t dig into things that don’t affect them that much. And when the problem is on the news, it’s justified through cognitive dissonance with “they probably did something to deserve it”

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Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. There’s many examples of people who wanted the absolute worst for criminals, but once someone they care about goes to prison, they change their tune pretty quickly. People don’t dig into things that don’t affect them that much. And when the problem is on the news, it’s justified through cognitive dissonance with “they probably did something to deserve it”

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They do have an affect though. They vote for the people who make the policies. Sure, they don’t directly vote on them, but they do cause it.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What money is spent on what, and where did the money come from? You seem to be in the know. How much does it cost society when one percent of the population is incarcerated? But I digress; the US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources so it’s an unfair comparison.

> US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but that's the exact opposite of what I believe is true.

I was employing something called sarcasm.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to demonstrate that - to what extent the population drives policy and practice in all matters in which the state has a hand is just too socially complex.

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It’s extremely difficult to model what people actually want. Stated policy preferences change dramatically when you go from the general to the specific and ask people to make specific trade-offs. For example: https://reason.com/2014/07/10/millennials-prefer-small-gover...

> At first glance millennials appear to prefer a "larger government providing more services" (54%) over a "smaller government providing few services" (43%). However, once tax rates are mentioned support for large government flips. Instead 57 percent favor "smaller government, providing fewer services, with low taxes" and 41 percent want "larger government providing more services, with high taxes." We also find that the race/ethnicity gap on the size of government disappears among Hispanic, Asian, and white millennials once tax rates are explicit.

Most policy polls are useless, because they don’t ask voters what they’d be willing to pay or give up in another area for that particular policy. For example, support for universal healthcare plummets when you mention taxes and losing private insurance:

> But the more revealing part of the survey, I think, comes from the questions focused on the costs of single payer, all of which caused support for Medicare for All to drop below 40 percent. Told that it would eliminate private health insurance and require people to pay more in taxes, for example, support fell to 37 percent. Told that it would cause some medical treatments and tests to be delayed, support dropped even further, to 26 percent.

It’s also the case that in a Republican form of government, politicians are specifically charged with implementing specific policies that reflect the public’s hierarchy of preferences. Poll after poll shows the economy as the dominant concern of most voters. (Apart from this year when covid because a main concern.) People might, in the abstract say they favor taxing the wealthy and corporations more heavily. But when Election Day rolls around, they reward politicians (especially at the state and local level) who convinced a big corporation to move to their area and punish politicians who caused corporations to leave.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Norwegian system is actually much cheaper than the American system when you account for lower recidivism rates and reduced prison sentences.

Is there a stigma that haunts former inmates upon release? In the US it seems ones career is essentially over once convicted of anything more than a traffic violation.

It's the same in the nordics. Most jobs check for a criminal record, even in smaller IT companies.

At least in Sweden, the outcome of being sentenced (losing your job, making it very hard to find a new one) is factored into the sentence (that is, they decrease the prison sentence due to these factors as more punishment will be had after release).

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#57

Author makes some big claims without much evidence. The poor conditions of US prisons, and lack of focus on rehabilitation is I think pretty well known for anyone who cares, along with the opposite reality for Nordic prisons. But you can't just throw your hands up and say, "money! corruption! racism!" and completely ignore that the American people asked for this system in response to rising crime waves. No matter how…

> Author makes some big claims without much evidence.

Is this a joke? Do you expect someone to convey a compelling case for a broken prison system in the space of a tweet?

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal system certainly need a change - and finally states are moving to decriminalize marijuana possession (as it should always have been). On the other hand, there are crimes where you should certainly be in prison. Hard to argue that a child molester or murderer should be living in great conditions off taxpayer dollars.

And that’s the problem. Anytime someone brings up prison reform, the whole “child molesters” and “murderers” argument comes up to detract from the fact that the majority of people in prison are for minor crimes, not murder or child molestation. And if a majority were in prison for that, maybe there’s something wrong with the society.

> the majority of people in prison are for minor crimes

If you're talking about prison as in convicted and sentenced, I disagree. Prisons are overcrowded as it is. Minor/nonviolent criminals are not the ones serving time.

If you're talking about jail as in people who are charged and awaiting trial, yes you will find more nonviolent offenders there and they may not be able to afford bail so they are stuck there. Even then in most places space is limited and first-time offenders and those seen as low risk are not held.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#60
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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It’s extremely difficult to model what people actually want. Stated policy preferences change dramatically when you go from the general to the specific and ask people to make specific trade-offs. For example: https://reason.com/2014/07/10/millennials-prefer-small-gover... > At first glance millennials appear to prefer a "larger government providing more services" (54%) over a "smaller government providing few service…

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