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Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

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Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#31

Post by hackinthebochs »

Privacy846 wrote: post #24
aksss wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One would also do well to remember that Norway has a population of 5m, vs US at 325m. Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). The United States is operating at a scale that may break the Norwegian system. I don’t know that it would, but let’s see the Norwegian system work at five times the size (25m) before even entertaining the idea that it would work at 65 times the…

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Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost.

[1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#32

Post by giantg2 »

Privacy846 wrote: post #12
giantg2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the biggest drivers in US prison conditions is cost. The percent of the population that is incarcerated is quite high. This would increase the per tax payer cost to support the system, while also shrinking tax revenue (people in prison generally aren't making money to pay tax on). I agree that reforms are needed. It would also be great to see a reduction in the incarceration rate by relying on other pu…

> I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is. You think that the root issue is the majority of people who (according to you) have no idea how the system works, and thus are not at all involved in the system itself? How on earth does that make sense?

How does it not make sense?

I think you are underestimating the ignorance of public. Take poll of people. Most won't know that you have to wait years to get a trial. Most won't know that the majority of cases never make it to trial and are resolved plea deals (some of which are innocent people pleading guilty to avoid sitting in jail because they can't afford bail). Most won't know their civil rights (ask them about Brady vs MD, Miranda, the 4th ammendment, etc). How many do you think understand jury nullification?

These people fund the system through their taxes. They sit on juries. They elect people who commit abuses and allow abuses to happen. Even the ones who have been a victim of the system may not know it, the extent that it is common, or the other parts of the system they have not experienced.

For example, you could have a summary offense filed against you and the officer might amend the charge at the trial. If you aren't given a continuance, then it could violate your rights. If the change was made because the officer made a mistake and you didn't realize/understand it, if he will possible lie to the judge and say the change was for leniency (concealment of exculpatory evidence). At the very least, you wouldn't witness prison conditions for most summary offenses. For reference, approximately 8% of the population has been convicted of a felony and less than half of them have served time in prison. So the people with firsthand prison experience will be quite low (guessing less than 10%, but couldn't find those numbers).

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#33

Post by paulryanrogers »

baron816 wrote: post #17
ves wrote: post #6

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

The Norwegian system is actually much cheaper than the American system when you account for lower recidivism rates and reduced prison sentences.

Is there a stigma that haunts former inmates upon release? In the US it seems ones career is essentially over once convicted of anything more than a traffic violation.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#35

Post by amanaplanacanal »

aparsons wrote: post #29
TheNorthman wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. If you smoke weed, you deserve what you get.

The legal system certainly need a change - and finally states are moving to decriminalize marijuana possession (as it should always have been). On the other hand, there are crimes where you should certainly be in prison. Hard to argue that a child molester or murderer should be living in great conditions off taxpayer dollars.

I would argue that we should do whatever it takes to get them rehabilitated, so that when they rejoin society they don't continue their life of crime.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#36

Post by rayiner »

Privacy846 wrote: post #11
techdragon wrote: post #2

Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norweg…

The will of the people is besides the point. The policy preferences of the bottom 90% of the US population are not reflected _at all_ in actual policy making (a Princeton study from some years back). Edit: maybe this was it: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

That’s not what the Princeton study said. Regardless, the policy preferences of individuals drive our punitive prison system. Even among non-white people, under 1/4 of people polled in 2016 say the criminal justice system is “too tough.” Among non-whites, 30% say it’s not tough enough, and 40% say it’s appropriately tough. https://news.gallup.com/poll/196568/americans-views-shift-to...

In 2003 just 8% of non-whites said the justice system was “too tough” and 57% said it was “not tough enough.” It takes time for changes in public preference to be reflected in changed laws. Especially since the people who actually vote in state and local elections (where criminal justice system is mostly handled) are older and more conservative than the whole population of people represented in polls. 2003 was a decade after the 1993 crime bill, and the people who are the most affected by the criminal justice system overwhelmingly demanded an even tougher system. You’re starting to see laws changing now but it’s going to be a long process.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#37

Post by legacynl »

aksss wrote: post #21
ves wrote: post #6

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

One would also do well to remember that Norway has a population of 5m, vs US at 325m. Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society). The United States is operating at a scale that may break the Norwegian system. I don’t know that it would, but let’s see the Norwegian system work at five times the size (25m) before even entertaining the idea that it would work at 65 times the…

> Norway is also 85% ethnic Norwegians (making for a pretty culturally homogenous society).

Can you cite a source that shows that this matters?

It's pretty obvious how the difference in methods between the two prison systems can easily explain the difference in outcome, without having to jump to the 'race/culture'-card.

Simply put, having prisoners cost money. You have to pay for housing them, and the opportunity costs of them not being able to contribute to the economy is probably many times bigger.

European systems recognize this fact, and try their best to get prisoners out of prison as fast as possible.

Prisoners in European systems can get counseling for mental problems, access to education, and the structure in the prisons allow the prisoners to adopt a 'normal' lifestyle. They are supposed to get up themselves in the morning, go to their education, or labor, and having time off in the evening to do their own thing.

Although American media often shows otherwise, most crimes can be explained by circumstance, rather than a particular 'evilness' of the perpetrator. Nobody wants to be a criminal. European systems help prisoners to live a life free of crime. American prisons make it harder.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#38

Post by Mountain_Skies »

LatteLazy wrote: post #28

Back in 2002 there was a prison riot in the prison in the town I went to uni in. It was over the conditions. The conditions (room size, toilets, etc) were better than my first year accommodation. I of course was paying rent for the privilege.

History repeats itself. In the 1980s the State of Alabama was sued by prison inmates over the same concerns about the conditions they lived in. At trial the State pointed out that the student dorm rooms at Auburn University were not only smaller than the prison cells, but students had to pay for the privilege of living in them. Don't know how much of a difference it made, but the inmates lost their case.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#39

Post by Privacy846 »

giantg2 wrote: post #32
Privacy846 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is. You think that the root issue is the majority of people who (according to you) have no idea how the system works, and thus are not at all involved in the system itself? How on earth does that make sense?

How does it not make sense? I think you are underestimating the ignorance of public. Take poll of people. Most won't know that you have to wait years to get a trial. Most won't know that the majority of cases never make it to trial and are resolved plea deals (some of which are innocent people pleading guilty to avoid sitting in jail because they can't afford bail). Most won't know their civil rights (ask them about…

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