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Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

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Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#41

Post by colejohnson66 »

Privacy846 wrote: post #12
giantg2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the biggest drivers in US prison conditions is cost. The percent of the population that is incarcerated is quite high. This would increase the per tax payer cost to support the system, while also shrinking tax revenue (people in prison generally aren't making money to pay tax on). I agree that reforms are needed. It would also be great to see a reduction in the incarceration rate by relying on other pu…

> I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is. You think that the root issue is the majority of people who (according to you) have no idea how the system works, and thus are not at all involved in the system itself? How on earth does that make sense?

Yes. There’s many examples of people who wanted the absolute worst for criminals, but once someone they care about goes to prison, they change their tune pretty quickly.

People don’t dig into things that don’t affect them that much. And when the problem is on the news, it’s justified through cognitive dissonance with “they probably did something to deserve it”

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#42

Post by colejohnson66 »

aparsons wrote: post #29
TheNorthman wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. If you smoke weed, you deserve what you get.

The legal system certainly need a change - and finally states are moving to decriminalize marijuana possession (as it should always have been). On the other hand, there are crimes where you should certainly be in prison. Hard to argue that a child molester or murderer should be living in great conditions off taxpayer dollars.

And that’s the problem. Anytime someone brings up prison reform, the whole “child molesters” and “murderers” argument comes up to detract from the fact that the majority of people in prison are for minor crimes, not murder or child molestation. And if a majority were in prison for that, maybe there’s something wrong with the society.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#43

Post by boublepop »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #27
rayiner wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just the Nordic countries. In many European countries, such as Germany and Italy, someone serving a life sentence for murder is eligible to apply for parole after 15 years.

Average time served in the US for murder is less than that.

What is the average time served in the US? And how do you count death sentences?

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#44

Post by giantg2 »

Privacy846 wrote: post #39
giantg2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it not make sense? I think you are underestimating the ignorance of public. Take poll of people. Most won't know that you have to wait years to get a trial. Most won't know that the majority of cases never make it to trial and are resolved plea deals (some of which are innocent people pleading guilty to avoid sitting in jail because they can't afford bail). Most won't know their civil rights (ask them about…

[deleted]

If they are false premises, then show me some data to change my mind.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/15/us/poll-finds-only-33-can...

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#45

Post by Privacy846 »

rayiner wrote: post #36
Privacy846 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The will of the people is besides the point. The policy preferences of the bottom 90% of the US population are not reflected _at all_ in actual policy making (a Princeton study from some years back). Edit: maybe this was it: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

That’s not what the Princeton study said. Regardless, the policy preferences of individuals drive our punitive prison system. Even among non-white people, under 1/4 of people polled in 2016 say the criminal justice system is “too tough.” Among non-whites, 30% say it’s not tough enough, and 40% say it’s appropriately tough. https://news.gallup.com/poll/196568/americans-views-shift-to... In 2003 just 8% of non-whites s…

[deleted]

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#46

Post by FruityCoconut »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #31
Privacy846 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...

There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity.

Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historically diverse USA.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#47

Post by [deleted] »

FruityCoconut wrote: post #46
hackinthebochs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...

There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historica…

[deleted]

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#48

Post by waihtis »

Things are much of the same here in FIN. Prison is generally good quality and you can get a good education while serving time.

I don't have an optimistic long-term look on the system however. The idea of second chances and social equality has been burrowed so deep into most of the people that they've effectively forgotten that in order for a social security system like this to function, you need an input of resources into it. It is also a mixed blessing; a social security system that is too effective can be very passivating (why would you slave away doing cleaning work if you can get the equal resources for nothing?)

It has created a large, growing class of people absolutely dependent and unlikely to ever exit the system; ever increasing taxation is causing big brain drain; national debt has doubled in the last 10 years; purchasing power has shot down a fifth in the last 10 years, and so forth..

It also practically taboo to speak against the system, but personally I think to uphold such a system for the long term it would need constant scrutiny, balancing, and also potentially tearing down some structures every now and then. Now the mentality is just to drive more benefits for people using the system and more costs for people upholding the system.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#49

Post by Privacy846 »

FruityCoconut wrote: post #46
hackinthebochs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...

There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historica…

[deleted]

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#50

Post by colejohnson66 »

FruityCoconut wrote: post #46
hackinthebochs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race is important because people tend to support more punitive policies against transgressors of other races[1]. The demographics and the history of racial tension in the U.S. means that resistance to the Norwegian criminal justice model go far beyond considerations of cost. [1] https://nicic.gov/race-and-punishment-racial-perceptions-cri...

There's also the significant disparity in criminality across races, as many other Western countries are discovering the hard way now too with the recent acute increase in diversity. Sociologists can argue until they're blue in the face about why that is (and I'm sure everyone reading this has their view) but it's a fact of which the Norwegians perhaps have the privilege of relative ignorance compared to the historica…

Is there actually a disparity in crime? Or just a reported one? If police believe blacks are more likely to commit crimes, they pay more attention to them and the cycle repeats.
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