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Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

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Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#11

Post by Privacy846 »

techdragon wrote: post #2

Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norweg…

The will of the people is besides the point. The policy preferences of the bottom 90% of the US population are not reflected _at all_ in actual policy making (a Princeton study from some years back).

Edit: maybe this was it: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#12

Post by Privacy846 »

giantg2 wrote: post #7
techdragon wrote: post #2

Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norweg…

I think one of the biggest drivers in US prison conditions is cost. The percent of the population that is incarcerated is quite high. This would increase the per tax payer cost to support the system, while also shrinking tax revenue (people in prison generally aren't making money to pay tax on). I agree that reforms are needed. It would also be great to see a reduction in the incarceration rate by relying on other pu…

> I think the real root issue of all of this is that the majority of people have no idea or experience in how broken to system is.

You think that the root issue is the majority of people who (according to you) have no idea how the system works, and thus are not at all involved in the system itself? How on earth does that make sense?

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#14

Post by happytoexplain »

techdragon wrote: post #2

Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norweg…

I don't see any way around the enormous hatred and desire to inflict suffering that many Americans have for anybody convicted of any crime that carries any prison term. As you said, to them it's all about what people "deserve", and that ideology is one of the most fundamental and powerful poisons in societies - a part of the id that civilized nations seek to keep out of the government's decisions. It's something straight out of the dark ages. I would never blame a person who wanted to inflict suffering on somebody who personally wronged them gravely enough, but to want that emotion enshrined in the system is immoral in the most extreme way. On this topic, I don't think it's unnecessarily dramatic or ad hominem to say that the viewpoint of many Americans is evil.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#15

Post by Mizza »

Privacy846 wrote: post #9
ves wrote: post #6

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

How much of the wealth fund is spent on incarceration?

It's less about what is spent on incarceration, and more about how state funds are spent in such away that people don't need to commit crime as much.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#16

Post by Privacy846 »

smt88 wrote: post #4
techdragon wrote: post #2

Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norweg…

> citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it While I think that's true, I also think it's missing another major argument: that prison is a deterrent. I don't know enough to agree or disagree, but it's a big part of the discussion. My feeling is that Nordic countries can have nice prisons because their social safety net is so strong. Maybe they can argue that being a fr…

[deleted]

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#17

Post by baron816 »

ves wrote: post #6

The US justice system is obviously totally broken, but one would do well to remember the absolutely incredible side of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

The Norwegian system is actually much cheaper than the American system when you account for lower recidivism rates and reduced prison sentences.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#18

Post by happytoexplain »

Privacy846 wrote: post #11
techdragon wrote: post #2

Well it’s pretty clear that nicer prison cells don’t encourage recidivism when you look at the statistics. So basically it comes down to social drives/desires... The will of the people has spoken and citizens of the USA _want_ to see inhumane prisons because they feel the inmates deserve it. I don’t even say that while standing on terribly high ground... Australian prisons are much closer to American ones than Norweg…

The will of the people is besides the point. The policy preferences of the bottom 90% of the US population are not reflected _at all_ in actual policy making (a Princeton study from some years back). Edit: maybe this was it: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

It's impossible to demonstrate that - to what extent the population drives policy and practice in all matters in which the state has a hand is just too socially complex.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#19

Post by rayiner »

enahs-sf wrote: post #10

Sentencing in Nordic countries is also much less than what you would expect for a similar crime in the US, there is no death penalty and the prison system is focused on reforming inmates and getting them back into society. Basically the exact opposite of the United States prison system.

It’s not just the Nordic countries. In many European countries, such as Germany and Italy, someone serving a life sentence for murder is eligible to apply for parole after 15 years.

Re: Nordic prison cells look like $3k apartments in San Francisco

#20

Post by Privacy846 »

Mizza wrote: post #15
Privacy846 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the wealth fund is spent on incarceration?

It's less about what is spent on incarceration, and more about how state funds are spent in such away that people don't need to commit crime as much.

What money is spent on what, and where did the money come from? You seem to be in the know.

How much does it cost society when one percent of the population is incarcerated? But I digress; the US is not exactly a place which has been blessed in terms of access to natural resources so it’s an unfair comparison.

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