Google seems like a shit show these days. Being liberal and playing politics is more important than coding ability
Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
301–310 of 310 posts
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wouldn't that go both ways though? Why was Gebru so confident that the bias is because of something else other than the training dataset? She immediately assumed that there are other items contributing to the bias and devolved the quality of the conversation as well by making those claims in a frustrated/exasperated tone. The most obvious and easiest way to clear this up would be for the original researches to train…
The whole point is that it never is trained on a "Senegal" dataset, is it? Why do we always see these errors where white-centric datasets produce white-centric results? While it would be a symmetric situation a vacuum, we do not live in a vacuum. And acknowledging dataset bias by itself doesn't address the bias meaningfully. In practice, we often treat the bias as an exogenous factor when it is not, moving it outside…
The whole point is that working on more accurate methods for doing X is one direction of research and working on methods to correct for dataset bias in X is another direction of research. It's completely reasonable to work on either one of those separately, and it's unreasonable to demand (you may suggest, but not demand) that people working on the former direction fix the latter. Better algorithms and better datasets are both necessary but quite orthogonal.
As you say, it's a reflection of our beliefs about what to prioritize. If you're interested in developing methods of image upscaling that generalize better and preserve facial properties that were underrepresented in the training data, that's an interesting area of research, and you're welcome to work on it, but you don't get to demand that people working on something else prioritize this instead, they get to choose their own priorities unless you're paying them for a particular direction of research (e.g. like Google should be able to direct Dr. Gebru while she was working for them).
There's a responsibility to correct for bias when implementing models in production (e.g. if you'd be actually deploying it in Senegal, then there would be a responsibility to use a Senegal-appropriate dataset), there's a responsibility to acknowledge the bias of a particular algorithm if one exists - for example if it highly relies on contrast values which would be different for different types of faces, then that's relevant, because it's a statement about the generalization of the algorithm; but there's no proactive duty to "address the bias meaningfully", that's nice thing to do, but it's like charity - a voluntary choice to factilitate a social goal, but not a requirement or responsibility to do that. There's a responsibility to correct harms you caused, there is no responsibility to correct harms caused by others, that's a good thing to do, but not a moral duty.
Someone who invests a lot into charity work or addressing bias is doing a good thing, but it doesn't mean that people who are doing other things are abdicating their responsibility - it's never was their responsibility in the first place to fix social issues in the wider society. You can't simply point at random people and declare that they're going to be responsible for something that they didn't personally cause and where they did nothing wrong, that accusatory behavior is unacceptable, so naturally there's a backlash to people who try to assert personal responsibility of others without a basis to do so.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
Google did the right thing and they were civil. She made some pretty serious demands, not having been met, with such politicization there's no reasonable way to accommodate a longer handoff, and she knew that. Waaay too much risk there. She set her own terms, they accepted, that's it. She should have been more transparent in this, because in her Tweets she wasn't forthcoming that it was her terms. There are a ton of…
Do we even know what her demands were? I haven’t seen them posted anywhere. That said, it’s not behooven on either party to be transparent — to the public, or even other employees — because that’s just lawsuit bait. All we know is that she gave a hardball ultimatum, and Google accepted option 2. I don’t know enough about what’s going on, but if you say “Do this, or I quit,” you have to be prepared for them to show yo…
At least one of the demands was, quoting Jeff Dean's email, "revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback."
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have to say, this idea that we should assume the best of the large corporate entity to the detriment of the very real human person until "we know more context" strikes me as shockingly and painfully naive. Is the assumption here that Google is somehow better behaved than other corporations? I don't think there's any factual basis for such thinking. In my experience, corporations are laser focused on money, quarter-…
Most people aren't responding because they're defending the actions of a "large corporate entity". They're relating to the people, such as Jeff Dean, that made that decision. A decision that definitely wasn't taken lightly. The people that had to work closely with her, with whom she has publicly ridiculed on Twitter. She's even tweeted that she suspects there was a team of people behind the decision to accept her res…
> She's even tweeted that she suspects there was a team of people behind the decision to accept her resignation.
Would that be somehow bad? I'm not even entirely sure of what does that even mean. If I submit a resignation letter, I don't even expect it to be rejected, engineers and researchers are not some kind of ministers. At most some people can consult each others and ponder if its worth to attempt to retain her, but even then the concept is not entirely one of "I/we don't accept your resignation letter"...
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most people aren't responding because they're defending the actions of a "large corporate entity". They're relating to the people, such as Jeff Dean, that made that decision. A decision that definitely wasn't taken lightly. The people that had to work closely with her, with whom she has publicly ridiculed on Twitter. She's even tweeted that she suspects there was a team of people behind the decision to accept her res…
> She's even tweeted that she suspects there was a team of people behind the decision to accept her resignation. Would that be somehow bad? I'm not even entirely sure of what does that even mean. If I submit a resignation letter, I don't even expect it to be rejected, engineers and researchers are not some kind of ministers. At most some people can consult each others and ponder if its worth to attempt to retain her,…
I don't think it's bad, I included it to further point out that her resignation wasn't the result of just one person deciding they would prefer she left. But that multiple people agreed that it would be best to accept her resignation. Which in turn, implies many people considered her work conduct inappropriate. If it had just been Jeff Dean, then I may have more sympathy for her case as clearly, that comes across much more personal and unfair, especially if no one else agrees.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
On a scale of 1 - 10, how angry do you get at the thought of a black person arguing with you? You can be honest. How hard does it get your forehead vein throbbing? What if she's also a woman? I'm betting the very thought makes you turn tomato red.
Ah yes, the classic "if you're against affirmative action you're a racist" line. Knock it off. I'm the opposite of racist: the thought of arguing with a black woman doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'll happily argue with anyone. The racism here is in the behaviour of treating some people specially because they are of "wanted" races or genders. I'm criticising racism, not engaging in it. But clearly a lot of peopl…
Don’t think for a second you fool anyone, buddy.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let us pretend together that you are the VP of security at Google. I’d suggest you take a stroll through Matthew’s twitter page for the past year or so and mark down everything you find seriously concerning and in your view making him incapable of performing his job. You might find quite a bit, and you might think “I can’t believe the real VP of security at Google hasn’t fired him yet!” And yet, somehow, he’s not eno…
Well did he email his management with a list of demands they weren't willing to meet, saying that he'd resign if the demands weren't met? Because that appears to be what Gebru has done.
Also, did he publicly attack his colleagues on Twitter for their race? “Bunch of privileged white guys” is not something you want to read from someone who you have to work with every day, she should have been fired immediately for that alone.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#308The email she posted [1] makes it pretty clear that she sent an email with some demands/conditions (separate from the one "to Brain women and allies") and said that she would resign if they weren't met. Google said they wouldn't agree to them, accepted her threatened resignation, and told her it was effective immediately. Without knowing more context, it sounds like she tried to do some hardball negotiating by threat…
As I understand, she first sent out mass email to large group of employees that outright violated Google's policy. This act alone was sufficient for immediate termination. However, she then tried to bargain with her manager. Her manager basically let her know that bargaining was irrelevant and her action was serious enough that she is being terminated immediately. Then she comes back and tells the story with twist th…
Finally, someone who got what this is about; attacking anyone and everyone that dared to question her right to attack the company that employed her and the people that work there.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm surprised that she opted to publicly put the blame on someone and link to their Twitter. That could be interpreted as a dog whistle to her followers to start the public shaming. But at the very least, I'd guess that this will make any potential future employer think twice if they really want to be her manager. And lastly, I remember the name Jeff Dean from reading about advanced AI research, so if someone publicl…
Jeff Dean isn't just someone from advanced AI research. He's one of the longest time Google employees and a key part of the company's success. He's one of the chief engineers behind MapReduce, BigTable, Spanner, the re-awakening of neural network research and many other incredible achievements. At one point inside Google there was a website called "Jeff Dean Facts" similar to the Chuck Norris facts. The guys reputati…
I second the fact that Jeff is an extremely mild-mannered and kind (and supportive to young employees) person. If he reacted this way I assume his patience must have been worked to the ground...
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have to say, this idea that we should assume the best of the large corporate entity to the detriment of the very real human person until "we know more context" strikes me as shockingly and painfully naive. Is the assumption here that Google is somehow better behaved than other corporations? I don't think there's any factual basis for such thinking. In my experience, corporations are laser focused on money, quarter-…
Most people aren't responding because they're defending the actions of a "large corporate entity". They're relating to the people, such as Jeff Dean, that made that decision. A decision that definitely wasn't taken lightly. The people that had to work closely with her, with whom she has publicly ridiculed on Twitter. She's even tweeted that she suspects there was a team of people behind the decision to accept her res…
You are spot on!