The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire • Hacker News Board

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#161

Post by chordalkeyboard » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:29 AM UTC

handoflixue wrote: post #136

swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

Question: Why is this a threat to democracy, but previous censorship wasn't? There's always been an expectation of truthfulness in communication: We don't allow people to go around claiming that Pepsi causes AIDS, or cures cancer. You're not allowed to claim you're collecting for a charity, and then keep all the money for yourself. I doubt you'd be terribly okay with me claiming that you're a murderer and asking how…

> (Genuinely trying to understand if there is something that makes this different from any other sort of fraudulent communication - I don't see people defending the other stuff under the guise of "Free Speech", and I'm not clear why this would be different)

People are not defending fraudulent communication. They are observing that the same factors that make audiences vulnerable to misinformation affect the censors and the process by which censors determine which information is harmful.

If we had a test for truth or sincerity we could use it to determine which information was false or put forth in bad faith. We don't, so any person who acts as an information gatekeeper could be one of those people who is lying or deceived and they would then be able to corrupt the discourse by censoring the information that exposes their lies or misunderstandings.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#162

Post by ThoreauBred » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:30 AM UTC

“Only paid subscribers can post.”

That certainly is American.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#163

Post by gnusty_gnurc » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:30 AM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #83

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is literally the foundation of American govt structure namely the respect for unalienable rights of individuals to express themselves. It’s the first line in our enumerated rights. This isn’t “oh we should rethink things” this is a matter of natural rights and precedes anything we’ve constructed.

> This is literally the foundation of American govt structure namely the respect for unalienable rights of individuals to express themselves. > It’s the first line in our enumerated rights. > This isn’t “oh we should rethink things” this is a matter of natural rights and precedes anything we’ve constructed. I never said anyone shouldn't have the right to express themselves. Do you think it's in the Constitution that…

> lies are toxic to free speech

IMHO you're not interested in free speech unless you're willing to defend speech you find repugnant.

You don't need to protect speech everyone finds unobjectionable.

You need to protect speech that is almost universally opposed.

Minorities need protection, majorities don't, and this the basis of the American notion of freedom - insofar as the individual is the smallest minority.

> Do you think it's in the Constitution that you have the unalienable right post any lie you want to YouTube? I don't remember that being in there.

Clearly it isn't and I believe in freedom of association completely too. If a business wants to not serve anyone for any reason, I recognize that - clearly law has developed to qualify this.

This notion of freedom of association has no bearing on my ability to criticize Youtube for doing something I find wrong.

I can simultaneously believe that what Youtube is doing is wrong and they're completely allowed to do it.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#164

Post by charonn0 » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:31 AM UTC

souprock wrote: post #126

Spartan-S63 wrote: post #16

These types of articles are always insane to me. YouTube is a private company. They're pretty much allowed to moderate the content on their platform in an arbitrary way. I would argue that this is a good thing. We can't have it both ways, but we want it both ways. We want a non-government controlled way to communicate, but we want to mandate that they're liable to uphold the same First Amendment protections that the…

That is a fine argument for why the phone company should be free to disconnect anybody who speaks ill of the phone company.

That would involve eavesdropping on a private conversation, and as such the analogy falls flat (also since you pay them directly for a service.)

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#165

Post by pensatoio » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:31 AM UTC

deeviant wrote: post #155

swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

> Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked. Not really. UK has far more limits on speech than the US but is just as much of a Democracy as the US. "Free" speech has be weaponized in the internet age. It is a cancer that is actively destroying democracy.

It's patently not, and that's the parent comment's point. Free speech is highly restricted in the United Kingdom.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#166

Post by ThoreauBred » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:32 AM UTC

swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

Seems you are still plenty capable of speaking your mind.

I cannot help but wonder if anyone has considered Taibbi is just Trump; cashing in on rage he induces.

No way to comment unless you pay.

Hrmmm

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#167

Post by tootie » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:34 AM UTC

swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

I feel like have unequivocal evidence that they can't.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#168

Post by euske » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:34 AM UTC

swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

This kind of dogmatic statement is good for soliciting a response, but I think it's intellectual degradation.

There are infinitely many interpretations of "democracy" and "free speech" and it's hardly a simple yes/no question. We should be free/democratic society as much as possible, and it's an ongoing (while not always successful) effort. We should discuss concrete steps.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#169

Post by rsync » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:34 AM UTC

deeviant wrote: post #155

swiley wrote: post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

> Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked. Not really. UK has far more limits on speech than the US but is just as much of a Democracy as the US. "Free" speech has be weaponized in the internet age. It is a cancer that is actively destroying democracy.

"Not really. UK has far more limits on speech than the US but is just as much of a Democracy as the US."

They have a literal "House of Lords" which is "... by appointment or by heredity or official function."[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#170

Post by stonogo » Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 12:35 AM UTC

underseacables wrote: post #61

This might seem extreme, but I think we should allow people to make up their own minds about what is truth and what is not. They are very clear cases for censorship (direct threats of violence for example) but Questioning the outcome of an election should not be one of them. Somehow we’ve allowed corporations to be the arbiters of truth in this nation, enter control the reins of communication.

Questioning the outcome of an election is universally agreed to be perfectly acceptable. This is why we have a wide variety of opportunities for public participation and observation.

Filing dozens outlandish lawsuits is certainly a way to demonstrate fealty to the administration, but as we're seeing, it's not particularly productive.

Funding propaganda efforts to exploit people's ignorance in pursuit of undermining public confidence in the electoral process is shitty behavior at best and sedition at worst.

Conflating all of these and describing them all as 'questioning the outcome' is unlikely to change anyone's mind about any of it, but it does serve to highlight a profound lack of understanding about how elections work.

In my youth we had the FCC fairness doctrine to prevent corporate media from descending into polemics, but that rule was removed in the 80's, and then the FCC abdicated oversight of internet content in general, so I'm not sure how any of this is supposed to be fixed at this point.