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The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

taibbi.substack.com

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Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#81
post #70
post #2

If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.

> If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. I mean, the American founders already rejected a lot of ideas about the people governing themselves, because they knew from history that the people often can't check their worst impulses. > Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.…

This is literally the foundation of American govt structure namely the respect for unalienable rights of individuals to express themselves.

It’s the first line in our enumerated rights.

This isn’t “oh we should rethink things” this is a matter of natural rights and precedes anything we’ve constructed.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#82
post #74

This is a solved problem : don't BAN, but FLAG conspiracy theories and dangerous memes with a notice citing links to facts. I've enjoyed the somewhat balanced weekly covid discussions of youtuber Dr Chris Martenson / PeakProsperity. He generally backs up his opinions with links to science studies and data, but has been censored by youtube for mentioning controversially that "HCQ has some efficacy as a prophylactic be…

That doesn't solve the problem.

The very same people complaining about this also complained when platforms did exactly what you suggested. Even attempting to "fact check" is considered censorship.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#83
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you reject the idea that people are intelligent enough to think about politics for themselves then you reject the idea that they're intelligent enough to govern themselves. I mean, the American founders already rejected a lot of ideas about the people governing themselves, because they knew from history that the people often can't check their worst impulses. > Democracy and free speech are intrinsically linked.…

This is literally the foundation of American govt structure namely the respect for unalienable rights of individuals to express themselves. It’s the first line in our enumerated rights. This isn’t “oh we should rethink things” this is a matter of natural rights and precedes anything we’ve constructed.

> This is literally the foundation of American govt structure namely the respect for unalienable rights of individuals to express themselves.

> It’s the first line in our enumerated rights.

> This isn’t “oh we should rethink things” this is a matter of natural rights and precedes anything we’ve constructed.

I never said anyone shouldn't have the right to express themselves. Do you think it's in the Constitution that you have the unalienable right post any lie you want to YouTube? I don't remember that being in there.

IMHO, lies are toxic to free speech, and it's in everyone's interest (and moral obligation) to do their best to limit their spread.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#84
post #60

These types of articles are always insane to me. YouTube is a private company. They're pretty much allowed to moderate the content on their platform in an arbitrary way. I would argue that this is a good thing. We can't have it both ways, but we want it both ways. We want a non-government controlled way to communicate, but we want to mandate that they're liable to uphold the same First Amendment protections that the…

I think there needs to be updated thought leadership on what qualifies as "common carrier" and what doesn't. Whether gov't or private, if a platform is primarily promoted as an open communication channel then I think that some, if not all, aspects of "common carrier" laws should apply. Social media platforms would not have the trust and would not have been adopted as quickly if they started off censoring as much as t…

[deleted]

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#85
post #59
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reality has a well-known liberal bias Except when it comes to nuclear, GMO, gender science, nature vs nurture, I'm sure there are other things I'm not remembering right now.

Thank you for making my point. Not sure why I'm replying, as its wholely offtopic - Nuclear, i think you should read up why people are against it. ( spoiler, it isn't the science... but maybe you should think about who can do it effectively vs the potential risks of doing it wrong... or you know, the imbalance of global power when only a few countries could generate.. well, power ) - GMO, again, same point above. "Su…

My point was that liberals have their own biases and can be ignorant. For example, in the nurture vs nature debate, the blank slate has been disproven for years. Everything is heritable, yet the left clings to the idea of all disparities being caused by culture because it fits their ideology. -> You can't fix nature with policy but you can if it's nurture.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube can choose to keep or delete any content on their platform regardless of truth/free speech/or not. It's in the EULA. You want free speech, go outside and yell. No one is stopping anyone from free speech. What Google is doing is cleaning up content on their service according to their EULA. If you disagree with the EULA, you can gladly go use another service. I will add, targeting a specific genre of videos loo…

This is a non sequitur. Free speech is an ideal. We would like google to preserve free speech, even though they are not legally obligated to per the Constitution. If their EULA does not uphold that ideal, then they should change it, not compromise the ideal.

I'm going to agree but offer a different focus. The agreement is in that YouTube can do this legally and that is not the problem.

But this is also about the practice of ideals. I watched a Chris Martinson video (PhD neurotoxicology, runs something of a prepping channel on YouTube because he doesn't see how the current US approach will resolve comfortably for people who trust the government) on Vimeo the other day because they'd yanked it from YouTube (it discussed the coronavirus). If it has reached the point where YouTube won't let a medical PhD talk about medical research, what use is this platform to me? Music videos, I suppose.

The reason free speech is ideal happens to be because it is better - YouTube is less fit for purpose as an information distributor, it doesn't represent a full spectrum of opinions. I already know what the official government message is - they have a website. I read it on occasion.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#87
post #74

This is a solved problem : don't BAN, but FLAG conspiracy theories and dangerous memes with a notice citing links to facts. I've enjoyed the somewhat balanced weekly covid discussions of youtuber Dr Chris Martenson / PeakProsperity. He generally backs up his opinions with links to science studies and data, but has been censored by youtube for mentioning controversially that "HCQ has some efficacy as a prophylactic be…

This is very, very, very far from a solved problem. It is not at all clear that flagging posts does anything to limit the spread of false information. Even when we know that the information we are reading is false, we can still end up believing it, especially if we are distracted or under time pressure [1]. Yesterday, the Lawfare podcast did an interview with a researcher studying misinformation, disinformation, and mal-information which I suggest people check out if they want to learn more about the issue [2].

[1] "You Can't Not Believe Everything You Read" : https://wjh-www.harvard.edu/~dtg/Gilbert%20et%20al%20%28EVER...

[2] "The Lawfare Podcast: The Vaccine Misinformation Cometh" : https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-vaccine-misinfor...

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#88
What's really sad about what Youtube is doing, is that Trump's lawsuits do have some legitimacy. Potentially enough legitimacy to win. I'm not saying there is enough to win, but the potential is there and it should be given a fair hearing by the media & judges.

From day 1 of this election, the media has 50% of this country convinced that everything Trump's lawsuits are nothing except outlandish lies & conspiracies. Judges included.

But it started many years ago.

The media lies, spins, and omits. They do not report. Yet this is the information most people rely on.

There is an incredible amount of bias in the media against Trump. People who say otherwise are likely enured to it because its been this way for many years. The media has always been biased but it's been taken to a whole new level over the past 4 years.

When people dismiss Trump's lawsuits, it's done with absolute prejudice. Judges included. "Conspiracy theory". "Baseless accusations". Such words can be found in mainstream media all over the place.

Say what you want about Trump as a person, but many of the legal complaints are legitimate (not all). .The only claims that the media airs are the clearly outlandish ones (of which there are a few.)

Many of the claims are valid and are significant. Election laws have been ignored - on a large scale. One can speculate that the laws were broken with the intent to elect Biden, but its very difficult to prove intent.

But it's not very difficult to prove that election laws were broken. There is quite a lot of evidence. Hundreds of affidavits/testimonies of evidence. Is it enough to turn the election? It's a legitimate question with a legitimate basis.

Most judges have elected to casually dismiss these affidavits. Many of their judgements are loaded with clearly biased partisan editorialization. Noone calls them on their partisan BS. Yes, Republican appointed judges have dismissed cases. This does not make it OK for partisan judges to dismiss cases for partisan reasons.

And Trump hasn't lost 50 lawsuits. It's closer to 5-6. I'm sure random people have filed lawsuits and lost their cases, but these are not cases that Trump's campaign filed, promoted, or even discussed.

When I have tried to very specifically point out in great detail how the judges have effectively ignored dozens of affidavits, I have been called names, dismissed, and downvoted.

When I have tried to very specifically point out the legitimacy of some of the claims that Trump's legal team have made, I have been called names, dismissed, and downvoted.

I expect I will be downvoted and ridiculed on this post as well.

But this is what's wrong with America. It's impossible to have a substantive discussion on any topic related to Trump, and it's been that way for 4 years.

In recent years the media has focused their weapons of censor against Trump. Tomorrow it could be Bernie Sanders. And I would be defending his right to be heard as vigorously as I am now.

I understand a lot of people do not want Trump to win. But to dismiss his claims as baseless and wild speculation is doing a disservice to the truth. Regardless of what you think of him as a person, the truth should still be important.

Ok, I am done ranting. You can start the ridicule/downvoting. If anyone is legitimately interested in hearing the facts I base my opinions on, look at any of my previous posts. Reply constructively and I will return the courtesy. My posts are available here: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=prucomaclu

I am posting under a new account as the old one is effectively bricked due to negative karma rate-limits. ("Good! Because you deserve it!" I expect I will hear). If I have broken HN rules by doing so please accept my apologies.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#89

It is amazing to me that there are so many people, smart people even, that are adamant that we shouldn't have free speech in society.

You have a right to say whatever you want to whomever you want without fear of government retaliation, as long as it isn't "hate speech" in a fairly narrow legal sense. This is what "having free speech in society" has always meant.

The government will also punish people who commit crimes against you merely because they dislike your words, which frees you to say things you might otherwise keep to yourself.

What you don't have a right to do is amplify your message using the massively powerful social-media megaphones which are created and owned by tech companies. If you want to amplify a message that these companies find strongly objectionable, you'll have to build your own megaphone, or find one owned by someone with different views from Google/Facebook/Twitter.

That said, I wonder if it's sufficient to reduce the amount of amplification rather than outright censoring things the company disagrees with. For example, YouTube could let conspiracy videos be hosted but leave it up to viewers to discover them rather than recommending them in search or "related videos". It seems likely that censoring will have unintended consequences.

Re: The YouTube ban is un-American, wrong, and will backfire

#90
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube can choose to keep or delete any content on their platform regardless of truth/free speech/or not. It's in the EULA. You want free speech, go outside and yell. No one is stopping anyone from free speech. What Google is doing is cleaning up content on their service according to their EULA. If you disagree with the EULA, you can gladly go use another service. I will add, targeting a specific genre of videos loo…

They have the right to do it, and it will make the world worse off. Taibbi always has had a great guy instinct for normal Americans and how they react to elite condescension, and he's right here. My idiot brother got twice as radicalized when they kicked Alex Jones's crazy ass off YouTube. It made people feel better and more morally superior, especially employees. It hurt my brother. Now when he watches that asshole,…

Sorry about your brother. These platforms are designed for feedback loops. That has nothing to do with free speech or a legal protection to spread libel.

People need to realize that ANY website where a user submits content for is not classified as free speech. A tweet isn’t free speech. A post on Reddit isn’t free speech. These are “articles and or content provided by the public for enhancements to our platform” or whatever EULA legalese they use.

Yeah, like I said, banning a bunch of videos from one genre right now looks bad and people have a right to be upset over it. It’s still YouTube’s legal right to choose which content they want to showcase on their platform.

They hold all the power here. Content creators are at their mercy as far as compensation, views, inclusion in the recommendation engine, etc. then cry foul when the company moves in another direction. Down-leg economics. Specialized businesses based on a supply of value from another business. It’s not a sustainable model for anyone on the 3rd rung.

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