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Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

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Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#201
post #45

One book I found really interesting on this theme is "Confronting Managerialism: How the Business Elite and Their Schools Threw Our Lives Out of Balance": https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A76WZ96/ Core to their point is that managers have basically become a caste. They define managerialism as "what occurs when a special group, called management, ensconces itself systemically in an organization and deprives owners and emp…

Something interesting has struck me about this thread. In almost every HN thread about higher education, there is a very strong if not prevailing view, that advanced degrees are primarily a form of empty credentialing or signaling. Yet a search for those terms in this thread yields almost no hits.

I wonder if what's missing here is a deeper dive into what MBA's actually learn in business school, if anything. Sure, they learn something. There are certain kinds of data gathering or processing tasks that I would assign to an MBA. But I've known several people who have gotten MBA's after getting advanced degrees in the sciences or engineering. They all expressed that the work was time consuming, but not intellectually demanding for someone who is basically literate and comfortable with arithmetic. Their MBA "capstone" projects were nowhere near as meaty as their MS or PhD theses. A perusal of the flagship Harvard Business Review supports this notion.

Supporting your idea, I've noted in the past (probably here in HN) that the people who value the MBA degree the most are other MBA's. The "problem" with the MBA might have nothing to do with the actual content of the degree, but the formation of an insular tribe that develops a shared language and culture with a life of its own. People of real intellectual distinction may be a minority within that tribe, thus its effect may be as simple as a dumbing down of management.

If I've noticed one intellectual trait held in common by the MBA's, it's the ability to speak in a language that avoids any mention of the human impact of their actions. A sort of learned sociopathy if you will.

"Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#202
post #17

The most significant thing he said in this interview was probably on the regulatory burden that California businesses have to deal with. He compared regulatory creep to a frog boiling slowly in water. He also indicated his 2 companies Tesla and SpaceX are the last - automotive and aerospace companies in California, a state that was once a leader.

> He also indicated his 2 companies Tesla and SpaceX are the last - automotive and aerospace companies in California, a state that was once a leader. Except it isn't true. Other companies still make rockets in SoCal. For example Areojet Rocketdyne is still headquartered in El Segundo (next to LAX). They made the main engine for the Space Shuttle and are currently still making it for the upcoming SLS.

While you are correct, Elon's point is about "the writing on the wall" and in that, he's on point. Other than the small (OK, small-ish, given Virgin Orbit) startups, most aerospace companies are leaving CA or not bothering to incorporate there.

So much modern aerospace technology historically comes from SoCal, and yet CA as a state doesn't seem to care about hanging on to world-changing industries like it.

Your example about Aerojet Rocketdyne is telling. They are contracting - I believe the Aerojet facilities in Sacramento are being divested if that's not already done. Boeing is divesting most of its Huntington Beach campus, and Rockwell in Downey is long-gone. A lot of Space Shuttle Main Engine/RS-25 work is done at their Stennis facilities or in Huntsville.

Aerospace in CA is not healthy.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#203
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this working for other car makers, who are full of MBAs? Elon comes along and takes their market share.

Elon isn't taking their market share. He's banking on the future and stealing their market cap. What people are missing is that every car company is a fast follower and Elon's head start and subsequent lead is disappearing as Porsche (VW) and others are stealing the limelight and performance ranks. Similar to Apple, Elon is thinking in terms of profitability and long-term strategy and wants to focus on taking that ov…

> What people are missing is that every car company is a fast follower

I don't know if it can be considered "fast" when Daimler copies the Model S vertical touchscreen after 8 years and puts it in the S class. They seem to be slow followers in an industry that wasn't moving fast for decades and has now picked up a pace.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#204
post #167
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Porsche stealing the limelight? With the Taycan? Which starts at >$100k, with half the range and slower 0-60 numbers than a lumbering $70k base model Model S? (I know they're not direct competitors, I expect the Porsche to have significantly better fit/finish and handling, and the Taycan doesn't really sit 5 comfortably). At the top end, it looks a bit better, but then it's priced in the range of the 2021 Road…

The allure of Tesla is that their DNA and proposed vision is all-electric performance without compromise. They've forgone the luxury market and gone all-in with performance. The 3, Y, and even X rely on the nostalgia of the Roadster and soon the S. Despite the fanfare of the S, Tesla hasn't been able to convince the average consumer with multiple cars to own multiple Teslas nor the PR firm that their other models des…

Tesla isn't about performance, that's just a by-product of making EV suitable for everyday use. Teslas are about adequate range (400+ Km, 250+ miles), fast charging and a charging network that enables long-distance journeys, as well as getting as close to self-driving as possible. That's why 1 million or so people chose a Tesla over other EV and gasoline cars.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reminds me of my time at IBM under Palmisano a decade ago. His goal was to increase the share price by x%. It was no secret one of the strategies was to cut jobs in high cost regions (US) and hire in low cost regions. You'd actually hear this in all hands meetings. It was shockingly shameless.

>> It was no secret one of the strategies was to cut jobs in high cost regions (US) and hire in low cost regions What exactly is wrong with that strategy? You would prefer to own stock in the company that employed people in a high cost region when they could hire someone with the same skill set in a low cost region?

People are not interchangeable parts. If you have high-output staff in a high cost-of-living area, the strategy that recognizes this does what it can to "keep the band together" and keep them doing good for the company, not just saying, "Oh, they're an Engineer 3, why am I paying for a Boston Engineer 3 when I can hire a Engineer 3 for less?" That kind of false equivalence thinking is part of what inspires anti-MBA rants. It's not just about the "same skill set" or title.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#206

It's a special case of, there's too many people and not enough work (the real problem IMO).

The years before covid, unemployment was at historic lows.

People being employed doesn't imply that they aren't working jobs which needn't exist.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#207
post #13

I, for one, sometimes miss the knowledge that an MBA might give me. I'm a technical CTO and I have some trouble with long term planning, budget, managing people, etc.

> I, for one, sometimes miss the knowledge that an MBA might give me. I'm a technical CTO and I have some trouble with long term planning, budget, managing people, etc. Is it your first time? If so, you would probably have similar growing pains MBA or not. Being a business conversant technical CTO is the kind of thing you only get good at by doing it.

Yes. First time where I'm the CTO of a company, and not of a nano startup doomed to fail :)

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#208
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The years before covid, unemployment was at historic lows.

Which supports the hypothesis that many people who don't need to be working nevertheless are.

Well, they're pretending to. If you're going to be doing nothing all day, you might as well get paid for it. Especially if you're "working" from home.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It was no secret one of the strategies was to cut jobs in high cost regions (US) and hire in low cost regions What exactly is wrong with that strategy? You would prefer to own stock in the company that employed people in a high cost region when they could hire someone with the same skill set in a low cost region?

People are not interchangeable parts. If you have high-output staff in a high cost-of-living area, the strategy that recognizes this does what it can to "keep the band together" and keep them doing good for the company, not just saying, "Oh, they're an Engineer 3, why am I paying for a Boston Engineer 3 when I can hire a Engineer 3 for less?" That kind of false equivalence thinking is part of what inspires anti-MBA r…

I think that is a short term issue. Yes you need to spin up the high-output staff in the low cost-of-living area before you fire the high-output staff in the high cost-of-living area, and yes you need to do knowledge transfer, the devil is in the details.

This has happened to me before, the location I worked in shut down and the jobs were moved to a lower cost location. Many years later, they seem to be doing fine. If it was up to me, they would have kept the people in the high cost location but not hired replacements when people left while adding people in the low cost location, but they didn't see it that way.

Also, the longer I work in software development, the more I disagree with "People are not interchangeable parts", at least with respect to developing software. People come work on a code base for a while, they leave, other people get hired on, the code base lives on. If a code base can't be handed off from one group of developers to another group of developers without much trouble, something is wrong. And yes, I know that is an unpopular opinion and the role of a good development manager is to pretend like it isn't true, but there it is. In a well run software shop, you should ensure the people are interchangeable parts.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#210

Somebody had to tell them. What a bunch of cry babies. These bean counters are ruinous to companies. And no, I don’t buy this simple narrative that MBAs are good for mature companies. Not at all. Look at companies like Boeing, ULA, Intel and others. Ruined by MBA guys. Why is AMD outperforming Intel today? Because they didn’t make an MBA person their CEO. You need somebody in charge who understands the technology, pr…

Boeing CEO is an ex-engineer. Boeing just made bad bets. A good ceo makes good bets. They have deep understanding of their product and the market. It’s a hard quality to acquire.

Elon is right. MBA doesn’t teach that. You have to learn it the hard way.

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