Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#131

Post by findthewords » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

kjksf wrote: post #99

bluedevil2k wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars are 2.6% of cars sold, and Tesla is 18% of that EV market. That's not really any proof that the MBA's are "ruining" other car markers, is it? 1 - https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2020 2 - https://electrek.co/2020/10/30/tesla-tsla-market-share-globa...

EV cars will be 95% of all cars sold within 20 years. Most likely much faster. Lack of early, large and decisive investment in EV shows a stunning lack of foresight from all ICE car CEOs. Suicide by inaction. 18% is more market share than the biggest ICE car companies (VW and Toyota have ~10% market share). This shows that Musk handily outperforms all ICE car makers in his sub-market (EV cars). It's not like Tesla la…

Oh so that's where the market cap comes from. It's valued forward at 2030-2040 valuation where it owns +18% of the vehicle market.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#132

Post by xbar » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

The MBA-ization of America is a risk management strategy to avoid failure-by-bad-management among small companies that get big enough to receive outside investment. It has probably saved a lot of companies from cratering early.

Musk is correct that it also vacuumed up creativity and reduced total entrepreneurship as a result, Stanford Business School professor opinions notwithstanding.

This is a big impact. It is much easier to get a highly technical job at one of dozens of entrepreneurial companies that are bouncing along. The appeal of those jobs makes it less urgent to go do your passion project and succeed.

Is this situation definitely bad today? Does it point to a bad future?

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#133

Post by bluedevil2k » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

findthewords wrote: post #131

kjksf wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV cars will be 95% of all cars sold within 20 years. Most likely much faster. Lack of early, large and decisive investment in EV shows a stunning lack of foresight from all ICE car CEOs. Suicide by inaction. 18% is more market share than the biggest ICE car companies (VW and Toyota have ~10% market share). This shows that Musk handily outperforms all ICE car makers in his sub-market (EV cars). It's not like Tesla la…

Oh so that's where the market cap comes from. It's valued forward at 2030-2040 valuation where it owns +18% of the vehicle market.

In theory....the share price is the discounted cash flow of Tesla in all future years. Using a discount rate of 8-10% means the annual cash flows for the next 20 years or so are important (any further than that has very negligible effect on the share price). So the share price is counting on explosive growth.

Now, considering Tesla doesn't pay dividends ... what's really the "cash flow" for investors?

This is why it's mostly a theory...human beings don't behave like Excel spreadsheets.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#134

Post by sdenton4 » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #36

I've had a lot of bad experiences with what I think of as MBA types. Lots of lack of experience, naive about what they're managing and etc. They have often seemed heavily metric focused to the point that only the given metrics matter. I've worked with managers and executives that I thought were great, but the folks who sort of step into a role seemingly because they have an MBA, it just seems like a recipe for just a…

Worst I've seen was a fresh grad product manager who felt they needed to make Bold Executive Decisions and was really just fucking things up (since they didn't understand the product) and not listening to people...

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#135

Post by bhewes » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

Maybe it is just Oklahoma and New Mexico, but most of the MBAs I work with have engineering or other technical backgrounds. Endless MBA bashing is like making fun of liberal arts students half worth a damn do both anyways.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#136

Post by rwmurrayVT » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

the_only_law wrote: post #100

Someone1234 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to "climb the rungs" is education. This is an article/thread discussing his anti-education take, when he himself (in spite of having a first class education) doesn't feel like he gained from it, and suggesting others don't either (or even that education is harmful). His wealth and privilege is absolutely topical because he was able to bypass certain checks due to his family is.

I recall something about a degree not being a requirement to be hired by Tesla, but I’m assuming anytime this sort of headline makes the news (supposedly the federal government did something similar recently) they almost exclusively mean “for software developers”. I would be incredibly shocked if Musk was hiring self taught, say... material engineers or any other “traditional” engineer. I’m not really a fan of creden…

Self-taught engineers of the old fashioned sort typically is a fancy way of saying really good with CAD & some intuition about what will fall apart. Credentials are more important for design engineers compared to software engineers.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#137

Post by davidf18 » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

Despite having the great leadership of CEO Andy Grove Intel got MBA-ed, anti-engineering leadership and now we have Apple building far better performing laptops than the current Intel machines, even though Intel's mission is to build computer chips.

With next years Apple M1 replacements, and 2 years from now, expect that almost all of Apple's processors will not be Intel-based. Other firms like Dell will be selling ARM Windows machines which promise much better battery life (and perhaps a light machine with a smaller battery) to displace a lot of Intel in the laptop and desktop.

Boeing was MBA-ed as well which explains the resulting 737 MAX fiasco.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#138

Post by nashashmi » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #90

nashashmi wrote: post #61

What’s the point of an MBA? Asking anyone this question who pursues the degree or has pursued the degree or insists on its value, often gives a non-answer. Like the following: * it helps with networking. * it helps with promotion. * it helps with advancement in career. * it helps with your resume. Boiling it down, “I can show off better and tout an imaginary quality”. If I was a person who was self employed or runnin…

"I've come to the conclusion that a degree I don't have and have never taken any classes in cannot help anyone and is a big negative for a person". Seems a very broad generalization, doesn't it?

So ... what’s the other way? Getting the degree and then realizing the same thing?

Observation doesn’t speak loads?

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#139

Post by rainyMammoth » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

There is a middle ground to be found here.

Musk is managing his companies as pure hype-machines. This can only successfully work for a couple companies that operates as cult.

If there is one thing that made Tesla successful, is the charismatic leader personality of Musk. Tesla is only a success on the stock market. They are not profitable, and the coming years will be the turning point for EVs. I don't see them coming out ahead.

Re: Elon Musk Decries ‘M.B.A.-ization’ of America

#140

Post by ericd » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

orky56 wrote: post #93

lazyjones wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this working for other car makers, who are full of MBAs? Elon comes along and takes their market share.

Elon isn't taking their market share. He's banking on the future and stealing their market cap. What people are missing is that every car company is a fast follower and Elon's head start and subsequent lead is disappearing as Porsche (VW) and others are stealing the limelight and performance ranks. Similar to Apple, Elon is thinking in terms of profitability and long-term strategy and wants to focus on taking that ov…

How is Porsche stealing the limelight? With the Taycan? Which starts at >$100k, with half the range and slower 0-60 numbers than a lumbering $70k base model Model S? (I know they're not direct competitors, I expect the Porsche to have significantly better fit/finish and handling, and the Taycan doesn't really sit 5 comfortably). At the top end, it looks a bit better, but then it's priced in the range of the 2021 Roadster, which seems likely to be a monster.

VW's offerings are obviously more affordable, but they don't seem to offer the same range per buck that Tesla does?