EU countries team up for semiconductor push • Hacker News Board

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#181

Post by rapsey » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:46 PM UTC

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #157

arnaudsm wrote: post #8

This is a great decision! I never understood why Europe under-invested in semi considering the talents they have and the strategic nature of it. Intel is dying a slow death, ARM is leaving UK's control, and TSMC is slowly taken over by China. The tables are turning.

> This is a great decision! If they can execute, which I very much doubt, given the history of similar EU initiatives. The only example I can think of is Airbus. Those funds are usually funneled toward bullshit vendors that are specialised in milking such EU programs, with nothing to show for it afterwards.

Exactly. This is just money down the drain. A giveaway to companies that are politically connected.

I’ve met a CEO of one such company. A filthy rich scumbag that has half the government in his pocket. Ensuring that he gets the big government contracts and muscles out other companies for EU funds.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#182

Post by _fizz_buzz_ » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:46 PM UTC

newbie578 wrote: post #101

Unfortunately, does anyone even takes the EU serious nowadays in tech? The more I follow the European tech scene, the more disappointed I become. EU's biggest tech company aside of ARM is Spotify... Almost every second startup I read about in https://www.eu-startups.com/ is a fintech/budgeting app which is trying to "disrupt" banking. Revolut is the biggest player, yet they are literally throwing money to achieve a m…

> EU's biggest tech company aside of ARM is Spotify

Only if you have a very narrow definition of tech. What about Infineon, ST, Siemens, Schneider, Dassault Systèmes, NXP, etc.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#183

Post by _jal » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

rmrfstar wrote: post #167

yvdriess wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It does make it baffling why Intel is unable to produce 5nn chips with the same ASML machines TSC is using. It must be management failing Boeing style. ASML machines do not produce chips, they're just ones doing the etching. There is a ton around what you do with it, and how all the rest of the chip is produced. They don't come with pre-programmed transistor gate templates. Each fab company has its own libraries of…

> the consensus seems to be that Intel tried to pile up too many new improvements, which backfired. TSMC took a more incremental and safe approach Can you point to some industry literature that explains this? If this is true, it is a lot more surprising that Intel is talking about going fabless. You build a lot of expertise by rolling the dice on new techniques that don't pan out on the first iteration. People wouldn…

> People wouldn't be so pessimistic about Boeing if they had just been overly aggressive in a new airframe design

Well... yes. That's called judgement, and execs at firms like Boeing get paid positively stupid sums of money to provide the good kind. Which they didn't.

"What's the big deal? If I had left the vat of acid unattended in a locked room, everything would have been fine."

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#184

Post by hutzlibu » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

tomcooks wrote: post #32

Zdup wrote: post #12

How will they be keeping talent? I heard workers in IT are paid low compared to other jobs and especially compared to similar jobs in North America, what stops them. from just going to US/Canada?

Free healthcare, somehow reasonable housing prices outside of huge city centers, proximity to elderly parents, generally higher quality of life, to name few reasons.

In germany there is definitely no free healthcare.

It is just, that when you are employed, your employer has to pay it. When you freelance or are a student, or unemployed you definitely have to pay for it. But in a nice way, based on your income.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#185

Post by bzb6 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #184

tomcooks wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free healthcare, somehow reasonable housing prices outside of huge city centers, proximity to elderly parents, generally higher quality of life, to name few reasons.

In germany there is definitely no free healthcare. It is just, that when you are employed, your employer has to pay it. When you freelance or are a student, or unemployed you definitely have to pay for it. But in a nice way, based on your income.

If you are unemployed or a student you have no income.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#186

Post by AshamedCaptain » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #18

Zdup wrote: post #12

How will they be keeping talent? I heard workers in IT are paid low compared to other jobs and especially compared to similar jobs in North America, what stops them. from just going to US/Canada?

>what stops them. from just going to US/Canada? As an European working in a sector very close to the semiconductor industry my main reason is that I don't want to live in the US/Canada.

I might literally get double the salary just for moving to the US, and still I don't want it, either.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#187

Post by oivey » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:51 PM UTC

rmrfstar wrote: post #167

yvdriess wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It does make it baffling why Intel is unable to produce 5nn chips with the same ASML machines TSC is using. It must be management failing Boeing style. ASML machines do not produce chips, they're just ones doing the etching. There is a ton around what you do with it, and how all the rest of the chip is produced. They don't come with pre-programmed transistor gate templates. Each fab company has its own libraries of…

> the consensus seems to be that Intel tried to pile up too many new improvements, which backfired. TSMC took a more incremental and safe approach Can you point to some industry literature that explains this? If this is true, it is a lot more surprising that Intel is talking about going fabless. You build a lot of expertise by rolling the dice on new techniques that don't pan out on the first iteration. People wouldn…

Are they talking about going fabless? I thought they’ve only discussed making some parts at TSMC, not all of them.

They’re not on the first iteration at this point. They’ve been on 14 nm since 2014. 10 nm and to a lesser extent 7 nm is failing after many iterations and many years.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#188

Post by Accacin » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

brmgb wrote: post #109

ducktective wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on "UK's sabotages"?

But certainly, the UK has been against any kind of concerted efforts by the EU which might go further than the single market for as long as they were a member. They lobbied heavily to be left out of the common agricultural policy and tried to diminish as much as they coud, were against Maastricht and were not a member of the Eurozone, pushed heavily for enlargement ensuring they would be no political cohesion in the…

I'm not 100% on this, but I've heard it said that the UK was often a 'shield' for the more frugal EU countries (mainly the Nordic countries), as they often voted with us. As we were the bigger country, we were usually seen as the 'bad guys' though.

UK was in a lot of ways not a great fit for the EU sometimes but sometimes I do think it was good to have a larger player in the UK take a different position. I'm a big fan of the EU but they do seem to make mistakes, and completely ignore certain problems (like immigration).

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#189

Post by yvdriess » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

rmrfstar wrote: post #167

yvdriess wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It does make it baffling why Intel is unable to produce 5nn chips with the same ASML machines TSC is using. It must be management failing Boeing style. ASML machines do not produce chips, they're just ones doing the etching. There is a ton around what you do with it, and how all the rest of the chip is produced. They don't come with pre-programmed transistor gate templates. Each fab company has its own libraries of…

> the consensus seems to be that Intel tried to pile up too many new improvements, which backfired. TSMC took a more incremental and safe approach Can you point to some industry literature that explains this? If this is true, it is a lot more surprising that Intel is talking about going fabless. You build a lot of expertise by rolling the dice on new techniques that don't pan out on the first iteration. People wouldn…

The consensus on HN (search for Intel 7nm, cobalt, ...). It's all speculation at this point. I doubt that Intel would publish details on their processes and its defects so soon.

Intel buying some TSMC capacity does not mean it is going fabless. Nor does it mean Intel is abandoning being vertically integrated.

I like your Boeing remark. It's better to fail at doing something aggressive than to fail to innovate.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#190

Post by bildung » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #55

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for one, I and everyone I know happen to live here. I guess if someone can suffer the US' shitty conditions, I guess there's nothing stopping them from going there... except for the US's stringent immigration policies. Can't just hop over the pond to go work there, and I'm fairly sure it's easier for a US citizen to work here than the other way around. Of course, that too is deincentivized thanks to US tax laws…

"if someone can suffer the US' shitty conditions, " So crap, that people around the world are fighting to get in, what for those jobs that pay 2-3x, and real exciting projects to work on, and for the most part people that actually don't care about your funny accent. It's unwise to discount one of the US's fundamental, perennial and systematic advantages as somehow a drawback. Like it or not - the US has been sucking…

You have to look which countries people are actually migrating from.

Net migration to the US from the richer EU countries is about 0, i.e. about the same number of US citizens are moving into the EU as are moving from those EU countries into the US.