EU countries team up for semiconductor push • Hacker News Board

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#61

Post by ichbinwiederda » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #6

>Europe’s share of the 440-billion-euro ($533 billion) global semiconductor market is around 10%, with the EU currently relying on chips made abroad. $533 billion for the entire semiconductor industry seems small.. That's like .25 Apples.

It is not small. It is just that other tech companies you are comparing to are relatively overvalued, because branding and speculation inflate their worth.

I like to think of it like this: if magically the whole semi-conductor industry vanished overnight the world would be much poorer. We would be in a crisis. If magically the whole of Apple vanished overnight, we'd still have smartphones and laptops and tablets and basically all the tech that Apple makes.

Just goes to show that what the market values and what is actually valuable in aggregate are not metrics that are in tune.

At the start of this century, some famous American investment bank (Citigroup ?) came up with a report that said that in the near future (today) stocks which are luxury items will grow much faster than stocks that are essentials. And that is exactly what seems to have happened. The report said this was due to increasing economic inequality. Basically the middle classes of the first world have money to spare so they buy Apple Iphones and Tesla cars. The poorer people have less money and none to spare.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#62

Post by yvdriess » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

arnaudsm wrote: post #8

This is a great decision! I never understood why Europe under-invested in semi considering the talents they have and the strategic nature of it. Intel is dying a slow death, ARM is leaving UK's control, and TSMC is slowly taken over by China. The tables are turning.

ASML and Imec are still firmly in the heart of Europe though. In a sense, the bleeding edge/precompetitive part is already firmly leading in the EU.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#63

Post by Semaphor » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

_Microft wrote: post #5

ichbinwiederda wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beat me to it. Also Sweden is leading in tech, how exactly?

They have number dispensers at the meat or bread counters in supermarkets which is quite neat. You do not have to wait in a queue and can do your other grocery shoppings until the display shows your number. ;)

We have that in Germany as well in some places (CITTI Markt, Northern Germany)

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#64

Post by dataflow » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

jeromenerf wrote: post #30

LunaSea wrote: post #10

What will actually happen: some countries will spend a trivial amount of money in a PR stunt with not coordination between the countries and result in no advance for the EU countries participating. Source: All other industries in Europe.

Indeed. Is there anything impactful that is somehow European (not from a single European country, but as a collaboration between) with the exception of airbus and CERN? It’s not that there aren’t skills and talents in space, cars, pharma, construction, energy, etc. Edit: clarification.

Others already responded with STEM examples... but since you said "anything", I'll go in another direction and also point at GDPR.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#65

Post by ginko » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #43

ginko wrote: post #6

>Europe’s share of the 440-billion-euro ($533 billion) global semiconductor market is around 10%, with the EU currently relying on chips made abroad. $533 billion for the entire semiconductor industry seems small.. That's like .25 Apples.

Sounds like you're comparing revenue with market cap, which doesn't make much sense. Apple's recent annual revenue was ~275B.

I assumed the 440B was the market cap of the industry. Why would they mention revenue without specifying.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#66

Post by lnsru » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #6

>Europe’s share of the 440-billion-euro ($533 billion) global semiconductor market is around 10%, with the EU currently relying on chips made abroad. $533 billion for the entire semiconductor industry seems small.. That's like .25 Apples.

Hardware indeed plays a minor role in income streams of the companies. Just look at regular iPhone teardown: https://www.cultofmac.com/658650/iphone-11-pro-max-productio... Less than half for hardware.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#67

Post by ducktective » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

brmgb wrote: post #13

_Microft wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't ASML [0] the leading manufacturer of photolithography machines? They are dutch. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding

Yes, as a European, the past two decades were maddening. Europe had no vision concerning strategic industrial assets. Advanced steel production was sold to India. Key assets in the energy sector were pillaged by GE. The UK sold a leader in chip design to Japan and despite having ASML being at the forefront of photolithography there still is no credible fab in the EU. The pandemic really highlighted some major shortco…

Can you elaborate on "UK's sabotages"?

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#68

Post by queuep » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #33

1cvmask wrote: post #2

Arguably the most technically advanced EU country Sweden always avoids Franco-German initiatives and the leader in chip technology in Europe is the brexiting UK with the globally dominant ARM platform (soon to be acquired by NVIDIA from Softbank).

I've never heard of Sweden being big in (electronics/IT) hardware manufacturing, what kind of industries are there?

Not alot anymore, although alot of Swedes still think they are in the lead.

Although, Ericsson had their manufacturing in Sweden before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ericsson

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#69

Post by adrianN » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #55

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for one, I and everyone I know happen to live here. I guess if someone can suffer the US' shitty conditions, I guess there's nothing stopping them from going there... except for the US's stringent immigration policies. Can't just hop over the pond to go work there, and I'm fairly sure it's easier for a US citizen to work here than the other way around. Of course, that too is deincentivized thanks to US tax laws…

"if someone can suffer the US' shitty conditions, " So crap, that people around the world are fighting to get in, what for those jobs that pay 2-3x, and real exciting projects to work on, and for the most part people that actually don't care about your funny accent. It's unwise to discount one of the US's fundamental, perennial and systematic advantages as somehow a drawback. Like it or not - the US has been sucking…

Many companies are specifically opening engineering offices in Europe because it keeps getting harder to attract foreign talent to the US.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#70

Post by robert_foss » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

burlesona wrote: post #50

arnaudsm wrote: post #8

This is a great decision! I never understood why Europe under-invested in semi considering the talents they have and the strategic nature of it. Intel is dying a slow death, ARM is leaving UK's control, and TSMC is slowly taken over by China. The tables are turning.

How is TSMC being taken over by China?

Only 14 out of 193 UN countries recognize Taiwan as an independent state. Given how Hong Kong was forced to bend the knee recently, I'd say this is a reasonable worry.