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CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

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Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#561

Post by cesarb »

bubblethink wrote: post #494
jmnicolas wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but how long before Canonical pull the same move as RedHat? The way i see it, Canonical is trying to build a moat (lastly with Snap). I think I'm going back to Debian for my servers. i wish they add 10 years lts though.

>i wish they add 10 years lts though I really don't get this fascination with 10 year LTS. Why is it so hard to upgrade in half a decade ? I mean this is such an arbitrary number. If RHEL started offering 50 year support, people will complain that Debian is 1/10th of RHEL.

> I really don't get this fascination with 10 year LTS. Why is it so hard to upgrade in half a decade ?

The ideal situation is never having to upgrade: you buy your computer, install the operating system, and it works the same until you retire it. If your computer has a 5 year warranty, you expect to use it for at least 5 years before retiring it.

A 5 year LTS is only 5 years if you install the moment it's released, but that's not usually the case; for instance, there's a new Ubuntu LTS release every 2 years, so in the worst case your LTS installation will last only 3 years. Now consider the "10 year" RHEL LTS: in the worst case (you installed RHEL 7 just before RHEL 8 was released), your LTS installation will last 5 years, perfectly matching the warranty period.

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#562

Post by pjmlp »

bayindirh wrote: post #556
pjmlp wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good on them, they stepped in for Sun when no one else bothered to [0], including Google after screwing them up. I guess the "community" would love to keep using Java frozen in version 6. [0] - Only IBM considered it, which from these threads people here wouldn't be happy anyway.

Development of programming languages by corporations is not something I object but, all of the stuff told about Oracle here is correct. They're not a nice entity unless you pay money to them and they're greedy. They always want more. Also, their hardware can fail in strange ways and they'd shrug it off. I've met with some nice people who migrated from Sun but they all say that the terms they work are draconian. I lik…

Here some news for you, check the names of the companies that put money on the table for Python and C++.

IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Oracle, Amazon, Sony, Nintendo

So much better.

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#563

Post by pjmlp »

thu2111 wrote: post #557
bayindirh wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've done all of them because they think it'll allow them to earn more money with less effort on the long run, not because of the sheer love of computer science and research. Oracle creates cool tech in the legacy of Sun because it impresses the right people who can influence the decision makers. To recap: "Hey, Oracle's these new toys are capable and fun to use. We can do much more with them. Can you buy these fo…

I don't think that's really true. My understanding from talking to people there is that Java funding was increased for so many years despite losing money because Larry Ellison just thought it was cool tech and they use it a lot. Likewise, GraalVM is so well funded largely because it's cool and Oracle doesn't have many cool R&D projects. It's not clear it's all that commercially driven when you observe that so much of…

Oracle has been in the bed with IBM and Sun regarding Java since version 1.0.

The supported versions of Java and Graal are the same price as any other enterprise product.

They put the effort, someone has to pay for it.

Where are the free beer JIT, AOT and GC implementations for free beer languages that outperform Java?

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#564

Post by bonzini »

pinewurst wrote: post #310
awill wrote: post #109

This is awful. It's proof of the downsides to the IBM acquisition, which I think we all knew was coming. Imagine if you were running a business, and deployed CentOS 8 based on the 10 year lifespan promise. You're totally screwed now, and Red Hat knows it. Why on earth didn't they make this switch starting with CentOS 9???? Let's not sugar coat this. They've betrayed their users. I personally run a CentOS 7 server (as…

Where's the evidence that this is IBM driven?

There's none. Hanlon's razor applies, and I say that as a Red Hat employee.

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#565

Post by bayindirh »

pjmlp wrote: post #562
bayindirh wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Development of programming languages by corporations is not something I object but, all of the stuff told about Oracle here is correct. They're not a nice entity unless you pay money to them and they're greedy. They always want more. Also, their hardware can fail in strange ways and they'd shrug it off. I've met with some nice people who migrated from Sun but they all say that the terms they work are draconian. I lik…

Here some news for you, check the names of the companies that put money on the table for Python and C++. IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Oracle, Amazon, Sony, Nintendo So much better.

However, the governing bodies of these programming languages are independent from the companies themselves, which is different than Java's position.

These companies employ people who contribute to these programming languages. So the model is somewhat different.

I'm not that oblivious about the real/programming world.

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#566

Post by bonzini »

Twirrim wrote: post #369
symlinkk wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will almost certainly be slower than Ubuntu just because of the extra layer of work mentioned above.

Canonical are also fairly actively involved in security fixes and among those brought in to the various security embargoes. They usually ship packages the same day embargoes drop.

If by "involved" you mean "take patches that someone else developed and shared on the distros predisclosure list", then they are.

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#567

Post by pjmlp »

bayindirh wrote: post #565
pjmlp wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here some news for you, check the names of the companies that put money on the table for Python and C++. IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Oracle, Amazon, Sony, Nintendo So much better.

However, the governing bodies of these programming languages are independent from the companies themselves, which is different than Java's position. These companies employ people who contribute to these programming languages. So the model is somewhat different. I'm not that oblivious about the real/programming world.

It is naïve to think that the employees of the companies aren't driving their employers agenda, regardless how "independent" those governing bodies are.

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#568

Post by tlamponi »

abalashov wrote: post #327

When I got started in business in the late 2000s, I was constantly fighting for Debian vs. CentOS, and eventually was forced to concede -- 95% of my customers wanted to run CentOS, all the more so given the exceptional conservatism of the telecom industry. They were attracted to its promise of long-term support and longevity, and, perhaps more vitally, it's what all the other organisations who sought an "enterprise-f…

Further, Debian gives a clean and normally very well working upgrade path, which I take anytime over Frankenstein backport updates keeping a distro release on life support until X years later one needs to redo everything.

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#569

Post by bayindirh »

pjmlp wrote: post #567
bayindirh wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, the governing bodies of these programming languages are independent from the companies themselves, which is different than Java's position. These companies employ people who contribute to these programming languages. So the model is somewhat different. I'm not that oblivious about the real/programming world.

It is naïve to think that the employees of the companies aren't driving their employers agenda, regardless how "independent" those governing bodies are.

Of course but, there are sub-committees which melt all the agendas into a single pot and create solutions which makes everyone happy. Also some of these languages have or had BDFLs.

Oracle's governance is different from this. C++ is an ISO committee. Python has a lot of working groups, etc.

Java is much more centralized when you compare with others.

Re: CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream

#570

Post by yrro »

joana035 wrote: post #507
awill wrote: post #109

This is awful. It's proof of the downsides to the IBM acquisition, which I think we all knew was coming. Imagine if you were running a business, and deployed CentOS 8 based on the 10 year lifespan promise. You're totally screwed now, and Red Hat knows it. Why on earth didn't they make this switch starting with CentOS 9???? Let's not sugar coat this. They've betrayed their users. I personally run a CentOS 7 server (as…

That is a great opportunity to switch to Debian, which can be upgraded in place between major versions and, by being completely community driven, does not suffer from this kind of surprises.

If only it had comprehensive SELinux support...
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