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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

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Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#101
post #93
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She offered to resign on a particular schedule It is not out of the ordinary at all for companies to walk people out on the day of resignation. The company is not required or even expected to abide by whatever schedule is presented to them.

If the employee says "I'm giving you 1 month formal notice of resignation", and the company responds with "effective immediately you are terminated without pay or benefits", at that point it's not a resignation any more, it's a termination. In most countries (which are not "at will"), I believe if the employee had not breached their contract they could claim wrongful termination in this scenario and likely be awarded…

This is completely untrue, at least with 'at will' employments. Once you resign, you quit.

Working for any additional length of time after that often occurs if it is in both parties best interests. If it isn't though, the relationship is usually terminated immediately after resignation.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#102
post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

>> go work somewhere else

That may play into the company's long term goals to winnow out the people not willing to tow the party line.

Not sure what the best option is, maybe for those that have accrued weeks of PTO they can all take it at the same time.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#103
post #13

She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.

Initially I took Google's side given Gebru has history of bullying so aggressively and has no qualms to play race/gender cards at every opportunity she gets. But now that more details (including the paper in question) has been revealed, it's hard to stay on Google's side. It is clear that the peer review process that Jeff Dean had described has been optional for all intent and purpose. It says along similar lines that right there on their internal website. Too many Googlers have attested that they have bypassed the process with no consequences. Gebru's paper itself has no real technical novelty. There was no reason to fire her. It doesn't seem out of line that Gebru was befuddled, frustrated and made a threat on the basis that she had right for the information. Jeff Dean could have easily offered her feedback and transparency in decision process. He could have agreed to let her make corrections later in the submission process. He did none of that and doesn't want to come out clean.

Having said that I still feel Gebru is extra-ordinarily self-entitled person. Few months ago she insisted that Jeff Dean take her side in Twitter feud she initiated. She has the mindset of either you are with me all the time or you are racist+misogynist. She complains about "micro agressions" towards her from everyone but she herself is super aggressive. When disagreement arise, she marks you down as enemy and launches attacks to destroy you completely with sole purpose of making you homeless, jobless and making sure your kids die of hunger. I wouldn't wish upon her as colleague to anyone. You might have right to disagree with me but this is what I have felt. I still take her side in this current episode nonetheless because I think she is on the right side.

Ultimately we are all playing opinion game here and only few people knows what really happened.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#104
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not I agree with the conclusions, that’s exactly the sort of paper one might expect to be written by someone whose job title includes the words “ethics” and “AI”. I’m not sure what Google expected.

The other curious thing is, behind the pink-boxed redactions are the names of four other Google employees. I'm wondering why they haven't been reprimanded in the same way. At least, not that we know of.

Well, she wasn't reprimanded for writing the paper nor for publishing it. In fact, she wasn't even reprimanded as far as I know for telling other employees to stop working on DEI. She told them she wanted confidental information or she will quit on a date she would like. They said they would not give her that information and that she is no longer welcome at the company. This isn't really reprimanding or even a normal firing. If I tell my boss do X or I quit and they say "Thanks for your work, we accept your resigination and the legal notice period applies." Fair play.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#105
post #75
post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

Big Corps have always been taken that stance. Google managers must be saying the same thing up and down the food chain. But the fact that it hasn't stopped walkouts is interesting. It means there are influential people within who back the walkouts.

[deleted]

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#106
post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

It’s just another example of the “participation culture” that modern parenting and social media have made commonplace. Who needs to do anything real when you can just upvote or retweet? You get the same sort of participation trophy that you’ve been taught to aim for since childhood.

What’s the opposite of “participation culture”? Not participating?

I feel like signing a letter of protest is doing something “real”. It’s communicating to leadership of the company that you have concerns about what has transpired. It’s not nothing.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#107
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is insubordination to have a different opinion, and then offer paths to agreement between professionals? Is insubordination to represent your responsibility area, as Ethical AI Researcher ? Is insubordination to send an email in order to establish dialogue around matters of disagreement between professionals?

Good point. I think its important to leave a link to the paper here for HN. Please read it or at least its intro & conclusion. https://gofile.io/d/WfcxoF After reading, it seems very much in line with her role as an ethicist. She merely states that there are various risks associated with processing large datasets. Its a bit sad that they attempted to censure such an innocuous paper that without malice states “there a…

> She merely states that there are various risks associated with processing large datasets.

What's the strongest argument against her "merely" doing this?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#108
post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

It’s easy to recommend others to leave their jobs. Do you like absolutely all the aspects of the business you work for?

No, but I'm not at the point where I'm signing an open letter to condemn my employer for something. However if you are at that point, you may at least consider that you should be working elsewhere.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#109
post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

It’s easy to recommend others to leave their jobs. Do you like absolutely all the aspects of the business you work for?

I absolutely hate my workplace. But I've hated most of the other workplaces I've been at. My ideal situation would be to work at NASA, but I've heard some questionable things about that workplace too. Point is, unless you run the show, you have little control over the culture and something will always suck because humans are individuals and not all of us like conforming. So, I just suck it up and work so I can live. Maybe one day I can do my own thing and establish the culture, but I have to be willing to sacrifice and do what it takes to build a successful business. My guess is that if I do that I might just end up becoming the very thing I hate. It's easy to be morally superior when I have nothing on the line.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. But if you tell your boss that they should do something or you’ll quit, this is bad and makes you unemployable. You realize that this is just an argument that whoever is in a position of authority over you is right by virtue of having that authority?

It's called "insubordination".

Do Google employers work in barracks?
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