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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#81

Post by pmoriarty »

geofft wrote: post #58
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

If their goal is to promote savory behavior, isn't it beneficial to have an internal voice trying to guide the company's direction? There is no shortage of engineers who would happily take a job at Google. If the folks raising concerns decided to all leave, isn't the net result that Google would operate much as it does today (maybe a little bit slower to get products to market) but without any internal check on its b…

"shouldn't we the non-Googlers want to make sure people willing to voice concern about unethical behavior remain at Google?"

That depends on whether they're actually effective. If their concerns are ignored and they're not able to effect change, then their presence at the company is useless as far as moving Google in an ethical direction is concerned.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#82

Post by rafiki6 »

spacekitcat wrote: post #59

I respect that she sacrificed her prestigious role to force Google to at least admit where they really stand.

Unfortunately, it's clearly more complex than that. To be fair, it seems that she has made it about that to an extent and media ran with it. We haven't heard from google or her superiors. It's clear they didn't agree but to what extent? And why did she need to publicly quit? Again, she quit. She wasn't asked to leave or resign. She volunteered to do so because she had a moral disagreement with the company. And that's fair. We don't really know if she was treated fairly or unfairly just her claims of what happened.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#83

Post by _y5hn »

spacekitcat wrote: post #59

I respect that she sacrificed her prestigious role to force Google to at least admit where they really stand.

"Old men's club" is real and need a shakeup. However, the elite clubs hurt both genders, not just one of them. It is not balanced by an equally forceful swing the other direction, but by emphasis on mutual respect for diversity of people. Sometimes measures need to be put in place to get the ball rolling, but they should be temporary.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#84

Post by notimetorelax »

zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

It’s easy to recommend others to leave their jobs. Do you like absolutely all the aspects of the business you work for?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#85

Post by paperdropper »

claudeganon wrote: post #51
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

Or they could just actually unionize instead of this reactive outrage. It’s unlikely Gebru would have been fired under these circumstances if she had a union contract.

I hope this does encourage more workers in this industry to unionize.

It's unfortunate that people aren't sufficiently concerned that their employer holds a significant amount of power over them - or at least, not enough that they'll do anything much about it - even if they do happen to have a job that pays higher than average.

Unions can be valuable resources for all workers.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#86

Post by krzyk »

rafiki6 wrote: post #63
dmarchand90 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the subtle, yet important, difference is that she said she would quit by a certain date and they terminated her immediately. Given her role is likely just for PR it seems rather foolish not to at least give her two weeks notice or something.

This is par for the course at most companies with IP to protect. If you quit they just walk you out.

In the US, in countries with more worker protections it is not. (unless they pay you for that 2-week, month, 3-month period when you aren't working for them, but they can't remove you from worker list).

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#87

Post by [deleted] »

tester756 wrote: post #52
_y5hn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>consequences? If he used his real name then you'd threaten him? talk shit about him on twitter? stalk him on fb? use this comment in order to discredit his other things? You don't like people with different opinions, don't you?

[deleted]

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#88

Post by ClumsyPilot »

w1ntermute wrote: post #48
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

It’s just another example of the “participation culture” that modern parenting and social media have made commonplace. Who needs to do anything real when you can just upvote or retweet? You get the same sort of participation trophy that you’ve been taught to aim for since childhood.

>"that modern parenting"

Back in my days we would chop off heads and assisinate politicans! These kids can't do anything right!

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#89

Post by jollofricepeas »

_y5hn wrote: post #55
tantalor wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called "insubordination".

Is insubordination to have a different opinion, and then offer paths to agreement between professionals? Is insubordination to represent your responsibility area, as Ethical AI Researcher ? Is insubordination to send an email in order to establish dialogue around matters of disagreement between professionals?

Good point. I think its important to leave a link to the paper here for HN. Please read it or at least its intro & conclusion.

https://gofile.io/d/WfcxoF

After reading, it seems very much in line with her role as an ethicist. She merely states that there are various risks associated with processing large datasets.

Its a bit sad that they attempted to censure such an innocuous paper that without malice states “there are risks to consider.”

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#90

Post by lostjohnny »

yulaow wrote: post #32
dmarchand90 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the subtle, yet important, difference is that she said she would quit by a certain date and they terminated her immediately. Given her role is likely just for PR it seems rather foolish not to at least give her two weeks notice or something.

In her group email she also asked other employees to stop working in any other related project. I mean, I don't see how google could NOT terminate her after such an event. I am in a nation with extremly strong worker protection law but that action alone would be enough to fire you on the spot.

> but that action alone would be enough to fire you on the spot.

They are not as strong as you think then.

In countries where there are strong work protections law striking is a right, you don't get paid for the time you don't show up at work but you can obviously convince an entire department or an entire company workforce to go on strike, without consequences.

Without it the protection is not strong, it means an entire company against the individual worker, which is obviously unfair (regardless of what you think about work protections law, Google against a single human being it's an unfair battle, that's why "strong protection" means that the worker deson't have to fight alone and can call other workers to join the fight).

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