EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home • Hacker News Board

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#511

Post by auganov » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 8:59 AM UTC

Spearchucker wrote: post #462

auganov wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and on the other have no idea about the EU parliamentary process. It is what you make it. Yes. But the problem is people have a very hard time doing that. You cannot engage with EU level politics the same way you can in a real country. All these people speak different languages. Very hard to stay engaged when you have to listen to translations. You hardly ever get the kind of engaging coverage you would for domesti…

My boy goes to a European School (schools set up for employees of the Union), because my girlfriend works for a European institution. I sit on the parents association of the school. That said - There already is a common language and it's English. It may not be officially recognized but it's what everybody working for an EU institution uses. Not knowing any MEPs by name is your choice and not a deficiency of the EU.

Watch any EU parliament video and count how many people speak English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io8aRZUFCxE

Even the speaker of the house doesn't. President of the EU commission starts off in her language, briefly reads some English off a piece of paper and then switches back. Maybe 1 in 3 or 4 MEPs speak some English. It's very hard to watch. And mind you, in most EU countries regular people would have trouble following the English translation too, they'd need to find one in their language.

I'm not questioning what you said about those working in EU institutions, I'm sure that's true. But that's irrelevant, that's not what drives politics.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#512

Post by mediascreen » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: post #486

mediascreen wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this affect freedom of movement of workers? Could we not have freedom of movement with slightly different laws in different countries? Does every little thing relating to the labour market need to be regulated centrally? It's just one of those things that always goes in one direction. Central regulation is just piled on.

This assures that workers from poorer countries are not put in sweatshop positions in the west. Just basic human dignity.

Centralised "right to disconnect" regulation is what will protect workers from sweatshops?

I'm not saying there should be no labour regulations in EU, just that there is a lot of detailed regulation that is more appropriate to do on a national level where it can take local culture and priorities into account. And the fundamental EU principle of non discrimination based on nationality should ensure that for example a Rumanian worker in France has the same "right to disconnect" as a French worker.

I can't see why Swedes can't decide that they don't mind work emails during the weekend while Germans decide they want to have email free vacations.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#513

Post by ciceryadam » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 10:39 AM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #440

lotsofpulp wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t even understand the label of on call. If you’re on call, you’re obligated to your employer. If you’re obligated to your employer, you should be getting paid. If your employer wants to pay you for time that you spend at home doing non work stuff until they call, that’s up to them. How is the pressure of “on call” any different than any other day at work? Unless you mean that your employer wants you to work 7 d…

This is not how it works in Europe. Usually you get some minimal stupid fee of say 50 euro per month for "being on call" (usually during one week per month or so) and you only get paid for the hours if something actually happens. This is shit because the 50 bucks does not make up for the enormous loss of flexibility in your free time. Even if nothing happens your whole off-time for a week is restricted.

In Czech Republic and Slovakia it's at least 10% of your hourly salary. I've worked in a company where they payed 20% plus a fee of 50 euro or so to cover your connectivity cost. So a week of base Oncall was around 10% of your salary.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#514

Post by ciceryadam » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:01 AM UTC

talentedcoin wrote: post #453

Hamuko wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

This sort of thing makes the (Canadian) hair on the back of my neck stand up. I can see a collective agreement for a govt employees, or for a specific set of trades within an industry. But for an entire sector? As others in the thread have pointed out, these types of arrangements don't always correspond to the reality of the business. If you are, for example, paid a yearly bonus, then the concept of "unpaid overtime"…

In here that only means a guaranteed minimal salary, agreed upon yearly by the tripartity (government, employers union, employees union), jobs are classified into 8 categories. Higher category means higher guaranteed minimal salary, but it is most of the time payed better than that, so this is usually below market rock bottom. Examples are: 1st category is kitchen helper, 2nd is janitor, 3rd barber, 4th nurse, 5th preschool teacher, 6th network admin, 7th dentist, 8th CFO. IT jobs are category 4-8.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#515

Post by ciceryadam » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:16 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #432

notreallytrue wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> soldiers In my country they have 28 days of paid holidays every year Ant it's still one of the few jobs left where they can retire after 15 years, 6 months, one day of work > Police In my country they have 28 days of paid holidays, 35 hours a week contract In my country there are 1/10 of the homicides per 100 thousands people of the US

And (I presume, don't know what country you're in) they're both legally liable to be recalled from leave? That was my point - not what their retirement ages is.

In Czech Republic everyone could be recalled from work, but the law limits it to "serious sudden operational circumstances, the solution of which is tied to the employee taking the leave". However if they recall you (or they cancel your holiday after it's been approved), you have to be compensated for whatever monetary loss you suffered from this.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#516

Post by cr1895 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:37 AM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #454

cr1895 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not a pool of sick days + personal days, with the "sick" days only available to you if you are sick. I imagine the situation in Norway is pretty similar to that in Netherlands, where if you're sick, you're sick- and beyond a certain point you are obliged to consult a doctor. Time management plays no role.

I'm not sure if I follow. In some jobs workers are given 20 PTO days to use as sick or vacation as they please. In other jobs workers are give 10 vacation days and 10 sick days. I was saying that it seems better to have the PTO days to use however you want than sick days that aren't supoosed to be used for non-sickness reasons. Are you saying that it is normal for people to use the sick days when they are not really…

>In some jobs workers are given 20 PTO days to use as sick or vacation as they please. In other jobs workers are give 10 vacation days and 10 sick days.

That may indeed be the case in the US. In the scenario I'm describing, you only have vacation days. If you are sick, then this is altogether separate from your vacation days. There is no calculation or concept of using your vacation days if you are ill, or calling in sick as some form of vacation when not actually sick...at least not structurally. In some countries, if you are sick on your vacation day you even get your vacation days back!

In what way is it better for the employee to have a fixed pool of days that illness can cut into, compared to having a fixed pool of days that is truly and only yours for vacation (while not sick!)?

Maybe from the employer's perspective, costs are lower. But fortunately these are settled matters of employment regulation in Europe, and workers' well-being has been a focus.

>have to pay for a doctors visit

Indeed it's not a perfect world...no one has to pay for this in Europe.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#517

Post by ciceryadam » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:42 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #281

tolbish wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until you find out how many days per year the US mandates for parental leave. I'll save you the suspense. The number is zero.

Federal law in the US mandates 12 workweeks of unpaid leave to care for yourself or someone else if your employer has 50+ employees: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fmla/faq However, it doesn’t separate for yourself and someone else, so technically a mother could be on bed rest for 3 months and exhaust all of her leave. A small number of states do mandate paid family leave (specifically to care for someone else whic…

In EU parental leave is paid, not in full, but you don't lose all your income while taking care of yourself and new taxpayer.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#518

Post by ciceryadam » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 11:55 AM UTC

cr1895 wrote: post #392

donatj wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the people ITT are going to disagree with me, but vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity. If I missed weeks of work I wouldn't also take a vacation that year regardless.

>vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity. In many places (Europe, generally?), vacation days are earned. At least in the Netherlands if you were absent for weeks due to illness (for which there is no fixed pool of days), and decided not to take any vacation days, you'd either have some of your vacation days rolled over to the next year or they'd be paid out to you with salary and taxed. It's not a luxury in t…

How's it in Netherlands in case of long term sickness? In Czech Republic we have the time off accrued based on worked hours. If you are out sick 2 weeks, you don't earn holiday time for these days. So instead of they yearly 25 days off you'll only have 24.

But parental leave is considered as work, so if you come back after your parental leave, you have your full amount.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#519

Post by cr1895 » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 12:28 PM UTC

ciceryadam wrote: post #518

cr1895 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity. In many places (Europe, generally?), vacation days are earned. At least in the Netherlands if you were absent for weeks due to illness (for which there is no fixed pool of days), and decided not to take any vacation days, you'd either have some of your vacation days rolled over to the next year or they'd be paid out to you with salary and taxed. It's not a luxury in t…

How's it in Netherlands in case of long term sickness? In Czech Republic we have the time off accrued based on worked hours. If you are out sick 2 weeks, you don't earn holiday time for these days. So instead of they yearly 25 days off you'll only have 24. But parental leave is considered as work, so if you come back after your parental leave, you have your full amount.

>In Czech Republic we have the time off accrued based on worked hours.

There's no distinction, at least not with the statutory holidays. You earn them as you earn your wages and there is no adjustment for illness.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#520

Post by MereInterest » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #505

MereInterest wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where would you put something like "the human right not to be murdered"? On the one hand, it cannot be infringed unless there is someone else there to infringe it. On the other hand, if you exist within any society (the default position of all human beings throughout history), then this right requires active protection to maintain. Overall, I don't think it is a useful distinction to make. For either type of human ri…

Huh? Right not to be murdered is right to life, which is exactly the same as freedom of speech. You have it unless someone else infringes on it. Those are very different from healthcare, which is not something you have unless it is infringed. Healthcare needs to be actively provided for you. When you can very clearly put all "rights" into one of the two buckets, it's pretty clear there is a real distinction.

The point I am trying to make is that all rights, positive or negative, require social structures to maintain and protect. There isn't a point in comparing to some Hobbesian wilderness as the blank canvas on which society is drawn, because there never has been such a situation. So long as there have been humans, there has been human society, because that is what makes us human. Therefore, pretending that rights start from a perspective of a single human adrift in the wilderness is an poor starting point.