EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home • Hacker News Board

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#341

Post by bvcvbuiy » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #271

skohan wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent part of my career working in the US, and now I work in Germany, and I can say the labor laws make a huge difference. Some would say this type of law hampers innovation, but at some level if there is not a basic fair playing field set for everyone, there will always be the incentive for some to over-work to get ahead.

There is a limit to creative work. Quality will suffer if you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week. It's better to do the 7.5 hours, go home and come back rested the next day. Your subconscious will be working on the problem anyway. Most European countries seem to be over the glorification of long grueling hours. In the US and Japan it's still a badge of honor how much you work - never mind that productivity in either c…

When I see someone working long hours I always think that either this person must be very disorganised or should move to a less exploitative company. I don't see it as honorific at all (I live in the UK).

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#342

Post by gorbachev » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #257

Symbiote wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the American developer happier in life than the Finn? Do they have time to enjoy all that extra money? The 40 hours is averaged over several weeks (normally). You can have an extra 3 hours, but leave work at lunchtime the next day.

The American developer can retire in 1/3 to 1/2 the time of the Finn. And yes, I'd say working a bit more for that is an obvious yes.

It depends.

You can't, if:

1. you have a chronic illness that requires a good healthcare plan to be treated affordably

2. you have a large family

3. your student debt is larger than average

4. you have a large mortgage

5. your have other financial liabilities you can't afford to handle without good paying job

6. you have no retirement savings or they are insufficient

Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 are non-issues in Scandinavian countries.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#343

Post by Afton » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #270

colejohnson66 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a balance. But the point GP is making (it seems) is that if “shit [does] hit the fan,” you should be paid overtime for it, not have it be part of your job. It’s a cultural difference really.

It doesn't really work because the incentives become misaligned. It becomes a good thing for workers to have things go wrong and for them to be inefficient with their time. Organizations end up much less flexible because they then don't trust their workers not to milk them. Ultimately it changes from paying someone to get a job done to paying them for hours worked. Anyone that's hired a plumber knows that you get far…

I don't think this comment deserves the downvotes it got even though I disagree.

Consider your example: If you pay a tradesperson to 'do a job' you should expect that they will cut every corner available to them that isn't in the contract. If you are paying for time, you might expect them to do a more thorough job. Which is better depends on a number of factors.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#344

Post by inv13 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

In Hungary we have the obligation of a 10minutes break by law. Since I've started to take 5minutes of break every hour, whatever I was doing, but really. I was in full blast "code" mode, in the flow, or whatever you want to call it, I just paused. No matter what. Even if you enjoying what you do. Just stop! In the middle of a "coding block", or a smaller feature I was implementing, I just paused. Than just really tried not to think about anything at all, for those 5minutes. This mind exercise really helped me with my daily problem solving ability. I feel like the longer I am doing this, the better it gets over time. Its amazing.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#345

Post by skohan » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #338

skohan wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered moving to the US? But honestly the pay gap is not due to labour laws, at least not directly. It's because there's a war between the big tech firms to acquire talent which doesn't exist the same way in Europe.

I have actually seriously considered it, and this international company is one of the reasons why I joined it because of the opportunity to relocate. US also has much better opportunities for entrepreneurship and other things in my opinion. Simply due to scale of English speaking crowd and of course people there are more likely to buy things. But it would require coming out of my comfort zone so much. I have a girlfr…

> Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US?

Historical/incidental reasons I suppose. I think a lot of it has to do with a lot of the big tech giants, and a lot of VC being centered there (especially around SV specifically) so there is a lot of defensive hiring. When facebook pays a developer $250k per year, it's not only because of the value they're providing facebook, but it's because of the value they could provide a startup which could compete with facebook. By driving up the price of talent, they price startups out of the market.

Startups in Europe have much less access to VC funding, so they are less of a threat.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#346

Post by drstewart » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #257

Symbiote wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the American developer happier in life than the Finn? Do they have time to enjoy all that extra money? The 40 hours is averaged over several weeks (normally). You can have an extra 3 hours, but leave work at lunchtime the next day.

The American developer can retire in 1/3 to 1/2 the time of the Finn. And yes, I'd say working a bit more for that is an obvious yes.

>The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs.

Funny how Europeans are crowing in this thread about how Americans need unions for better pay, but when Americans say they have better pay Europeans just say Americans are obsessed with money.

The obsession with Americans tells a lot about what Europeans think of their system

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#347

Post by inv13 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

d33 wrote: post #105

> To date, workers in Germany can only write off work costs at home if they can prove they have one room in their household dedicated solely to work. How does one prove they don't use the room for anything else? Webcam recording throughout the month? Also, this kind of deduction favors the rich as the poor can't afford having one room just for that.

Can't wait for a lawman to randomly knock on my door and check in on my home office. :)

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#348

Post by skohan » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

machinelabo wrote: post #339

theshrike79 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a limit to creative work. Quality will suffer if you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week. It's better to do the 7.5 hours, go home and come back rested the next day. Your subconscious will be working on the problem anyway. Most European countries seem to be over the glorification of long grueling hours. In the US and Japan it's still a badge of honor how much you work - never mind that productivity in either c…

I personally know people that work very hard 12 hours a day and their output is stellar. Not only are they creative, but they build some of the most amazing systems I've ever come across in record time. They're handsomely paid with equity and monetary compensation. I work in a startup with 45 top notch engineers.

Two questions would be: 1) do they actually work 12 hours a day, or have they found a way to appear to do so? and 2) how long have they done this for? When I was at my first startup, I had periods of 16 hour days, but after a few years of this I would not go back.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#349

Post by drstewart » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:43 PM UTC

CommanderData wrote: post #185

tolbish wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until you find out how many days per year the US mandates for parental leave. I'll save you the suspense. The number is zero.

I'm less inclined to listen when people argue eroding or reducing workers rights when they are from the US. It seems the general consensus there is regulation = evil and bad. Anyone who advocates such must be a communist. Not at all suggest your comment is doing this.

What other countries do you hold prejudice stereotypes against, out of curiosity?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#350

Post by cr1895 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #269

avianlyric wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My go to answer to questions like this is pretty simple. We shouldn’t punish the majority for the indiscretions of the few. Ultimately some people will abuse sick leave, just like everything else in life. But those individuals should be dealt with on a individual basis. Otherwise you just end up treating everyone like a criminal, at which point for an individual there’s no advantage to not engaging in abusive behavio…

Who are we punishing here, though? If we gave everyone all their days off in one pool then all the days could be used. Having the extra rules about sick vs personal just benefits the company. EDIT: I guess we are saying that the company benefits if you are not sick, and the healthy people don't get more days off than sick people. For people who would have trouble managing their time, like an illness late in the year,…

But it's not a pool of sick days + personal days, with the "sick" days only available to you if you are sick. I imagine the situation in Norway is pretty similar to that in Netherlands, where if you're sick, you're sick- and beyond a certain point you are obliged to consult a doctor. Time management plays no role.