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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#331

Post by yardie »

tzs wrote: post #299
vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

I check email and sometimes answer when on vacation, because often 10 minutes spent addressing a small issue while I'm away prevents several days or a week or two of dealing with a huge issue when I get back. I'm the guy who if something messes up has to go through the databases trying to figure out what data is incorrect, and goes through logs and reports to try to infer what the data should be, and then figure out…

This sounds like failures on multiple levels, you, you're organization, and leadership. So what do they do when you're incapacitated?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#332

Post by ericd »

gtfoutttt wrote: post #115
vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

>I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Then the work doesn't get completed on time! That's bad management not hiring enough people, not the fault of the employee. SMH y'all IT people need a union.

Are you familiar with the mythical man month? Hiring more people might not get the same amount done as a few working really hard.

That said, burnout can make working harder worse than working a sane amount. But that doesn’t fall on the employer as much as the employee.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#333

Post by pkaye »

matsemann wrote: post #37
MereInterest wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

I think the closest thing in the US is the short term disability in California which gives up to 52 weeks if you are not able to work based on doctors certification and a week waiting period.

https://edd.ca.gov/Disability/Am_I_Eligible_for_DI_Benefits....

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#334

Post by scarby2 »

Hamuko wrote: post #285
treis wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really work because the incentives become misaligned. It becomes a good thing for workers to have things go wrong and for them to be inefficient with their time. Organizations end up much less flexible because they then don't trust their workers not to milk them. Ultimately it changes from paying someone to get a job done to paying them for hours worked. Anyone that's hired a plumber knows that you get far…

I get full pay for a sick day and I don't have a cap on sick days. And yet, I have not called in sick in the last two years. Just because people could do something, doesn't mean that they will do it. The people at our company do not spend all of their time making the system more unreliable so that they'd be paid more to be on call. Hell, if you asked the developers, most of them would probably love to spend more time…

This! I hate the perverse incentive that many americans try to push about sick leave, overtime etc. The truth of the matter is that most people actually want to do their job. Do people abuse sick leave - yes, but it is certainly the minority of sick days taken.

In fact leave is undervalued as a concept by most US employers/employees, various studies have found that workers who take more vacation and work less hours are healthier and more productive. Some progressive companies are starting to learn from this (I spoke to a travel technology company a while ago who will fund you to take a 2 week trip out of the country every year).

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#335

Post by dvtrn »

strictnein wrote: post #244
jusssi wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the difference between a junior and a senior. The latter has better expectations of what one can get done in an average workday, and the confidence to push back with "sorry, looks like this thing's more work than expected, going to need another two days for it". Btw. Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment.

> Looks like the Great America is woke and hates you for the word 'union' you used in your comment. Someday maybe our betters in Europe will understand that the American experience with unions is different than that of Europeans. And that American unions are a very different animal. Until that time, though, keep thinking we're just idiots.

Someday maybe our betters in Europe will understand that the American experience with unions is different than that of Europeans.

In ways that no one should be proud of, and anyone with a conscience should at least recognize needs redressing-even if the outcomes are things they as an individual wouldn't directly benefit from.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#336

Post by bvcvbuiy »

treis wrote: post #257
Symbiote wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the American developer happier in life than the Finn? Do they have time to enjoy all that extra money? The 40 hours is averaged over several weeks (normally). You can have an extra 3 hours, but leave work at lunchtime the next day.

The American developer can retire in 1/3 to 1/2 the time of the Finn. And yes, I'd say working a bit more for that is an obvious yes.

The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#337

Post by lowdose »

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

If you deplete resources above a utility of 80% the waiting time becomes almost infinite. We can either buffer in capacity or WIP. This has been known lean at Toyota they never schedule beyond 20/24.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#338

Post by mewpmewp2 »

skohan wrote: post #324
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid this type of law will decrease salaries in Europe compared to US. For instance I work at an international company and I already get paid 2-3x less than same level engineers in US. I feel like this would increase the gap even more. And I'd prefer to have the option to over-achieve if this is what I choose to do with my life.

Have you considered moving to the US? But honestly the pay gap is not due to labour laws, at least not directly. It's because there's a war between the big tech firms to acquire talent which doesn't exist the same way in Europe.

I have actually seriously considered it, and this international company is one of the reasons why I joined it because of the opportunity to relocate. US also has much better opportunities for entrepreneurship and other things in my opinion. Simply due to scale of English speaking crowd and of course people there are more likely to buy things.

But it would require coming out of my comfort zone so much. I have a girlfriend here, family, friends and much more.

I have calculated that I could "FIRE" in US so much faster compared to where I live. Especially if I did some years of work in USA and then "FIRE"d at some low cost of living country.

But I think I'm not going to do it for now. Luckily the company pays well in my country too, just not as well. But I do have a lot of regrets that I'm not using my potential to the fullest.

Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#339

Post by machinelabo »

theshrike79 wrote: post #271
skohan wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent part of my career working in the US, and now I work in Germany, and I can say the labor laws make a huge difference. Some would say this type of law hampers innovation, but at some level if there is not a basic fair playing field set for everyone, there will always be the incentive for some to over-work to get ahead.

There is a limit to creative work. Quality will suffer if you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week. It's better to do the 7.5 hours, go home and come back rested the next day. Your subconscious will be working on the problem anyway. Most European countries seem to be over the glorification of long grueling hours. In the US and Japan it's still a badge of honor how much you work - never mind that productivity in either c…

I personally know people that work very hard 12 hours a day and their output is stellar. Not only are they creative, but they build some of the most amazing systems I've ever come across in record time. They're handsomely paid with equity and monetary compensation.

I work in a startup with 45 top notch engineers.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#340

Post by [deleted] »

claudeganon wrote: post #305
lotsofpulp wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically every state that has a semblance of worker protections is led by Democrats. They aren’t perfect, but the problem isn’t mostly Democrats, who at the federal level can’t get anything done without support from Republicans, who are far from making worker protections any part of their initiatives. It’s funny how federal government employees got paid parental leave though, but no legislation for non government em…

California is controlled top-to-bottom by Democrats and still has remarkably poor worker protections by the standard of any other developed country and is even worse when you compare things like the state of housing, poverty, and healthcare. They have tremendous latitude to make better conditions for workers and yet somehow this never pans out in California or other "blue" states. At what point do these excuses wear…

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