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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#481
post #397
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point. It may also be worth pointing out that's the case with "unlimited" vacation as well. Even if you're not cynical about whether employees will be able to take a reasonable amount in practice, it's certainly the case that nothing needs to be paid out when you leave. Which for someone moving around jobs a fair bit can add up over time.

From what I understand-and perhaps it varies by state-it's just left to the benevolence of your employer whether your accrued vacation days are actually paid out to you or if they just disappear in the US if you for example leave a company or don't use all of them within a certain time. It's kind of insane to me that they can just be taken away like that.

It may vary by state but it's always been paid out to me as far as I can remember based on three different states. (This type of thing does tend to be state-based law and does seem to be [1].) "Use it or lose it" also is prohibited in a few states although (I'm assuming) all of the others do allow accumulation caps.

[1] http://ask.legalsolutions.thomsonreuters.info/cc-nto-vacatio....

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#482
post #124

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> You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. Do you think it's a coincidence they get such a bad press?

At least in America, a good portion of it is a cultural difference. The EU tends to take worker protections more seriously without considering collateral damage (according to some). OTOH, America just does nothing because there’s an entire political party who’s big premise is “any and all regulation is bad regulation.”

>> ...there’s an entire political party who’s big premise is “any and all regulation is bad regulation.”

In fact, since Clinton took the Democratic party in a Neo-liberal direction (and made Reagan's dream of NAFTA a reality, "reformed" welfare, and the Glass-Steagall deregulation) I'm under the impression we have two such parties.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker protections raise the cost of doing business. Is it hypothetical that manufacturing facilities relocated to China to be able to sell products at cheaper prices than their competitors? Is it hypothetical that a business that a retail business offers their employees lavish benefits and sells commodity products will be put out of business by lower prices from Walmart/Target/Amazon/Best Buy/etc? Both of the above…

>Is it hypothetical that a business that a retail business offers their employees lavish benefits and sells commodity products will be put out of business by lower prices from Walmart/Target/Amazon/Best Buy/etc? None of your examples are headquartered in California, nor would any of these companies stop operating in the most populous state in the US with its largest economy were worker protections put in place. >Is i…

> None of your examples are headquartered in California, nor would any of these companies stop operating in the most populous state in the US with its largest economy were worker protections put in place.

The argument isn’t that they would stop operating, but that they would experience less growth or maybe even contraction from people or businesses moving away due to higher costs (and taxes).

> The hollowing out of the industrial core was a bipartisan decision made in the 1990s with full support of Democrats, so its a bit rich to say "if we don't let them treat people bad, they'll make it even worse than we already helped them make it." The same power that them globalize manufacturing can force its return to the U.S. Again, every other developed country with a strong industrial base engages in this kind of protectionism for strategic and national security reasons. Germany is again, here, a salient example.

I didn’t write “if we don't let them treat people bad, they'll make it even worse than we already helped them make it that.” My example was intended to show that capital does go to wherever it’s cheapest, whether it be labor costs, lack of environmental regulations, etc.

> You keep insisting this without providing evidence of its reality. What major worker protections have been advanced and put into law by Democrats since the Obama presidency?

The proof is that the Democratic states on the west and northeast coasts and Illinois have passed laws requiring mandatory sick days, family leave acts, higher minimum wages, better unemployment benefits, etc. (including since Obama, even though that’s irrelevant).

Just because Democrats in the federal legislature have to play a different game doesn’t mean the state level ones aren’t able to get anything done.

Lest we get off track, if you go back to the beginning of this discussion, my contention is that Democrats have done a better job enacting legislation to protect workers, especially lower income workers, than Republicans. The proof is all the states that have better worker protections, did it with Democrat legislatures. What happens on the federal level may or may not matter, but Democrats haven’t had solid control of Congress for a long time, and with the little control they did, they managed to pass ACA, which is still at least something for poorer people, especially workers, and which Republicans continue to fight.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#484
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American developer can retire in 1/3 to 1/2 the time of the Finn. And yes, I'd say working a bit more for that is an obvious yes.

The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs.

As if 95% of Europeans wouldn't quit their job tomorrow if they won the lottery.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#485

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There is a limit to creative work. Quality will suffer if you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week. It's better to do the 7.5 hours, go home and come back rested the next day. Your subconscious will be working on the problem anyway. Most European countries seem to be over the glorification of long grueling hours. In the US and Japan it's still a badge of honor how much you work - never mind that productivity in either c…

I personally know people that work very hard 12 hours a day and their output is stellar. Not only are they creative, but they build some of the most amazing systems I've ever come across in record time. They're handsomely paid with equity and monetary compensation. I work in a startup with 45 top notch engineers.

Yes, I worked 12 hours a day with stellar output too.

Then one night I found out could't sleep. At all. Had to take a few pills just to get some shuteye and woke up with a shitty metal taste in my mouth every morning.

I started getting heart palpitations at odd times. Was on SSRI for a few years just to get over the burnout. Acid reflux so bad I could only eat unseasoned chicken and white rice for 6 months.

Since that episode I've learned moderation and have had a hard 8h/day policy with rare exceptions. No issues since, and my output hasn't really changed.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that one of the fundamentals of the EU is freedom of movement of workers, workers rights fall right into core competences of EU legislation.

How does this affect freedom of movement of workers? Could we not have freedom of movement with slightly different laws in different countries? Does every little thing relating to the labour market need to be regulated centrally? It's just one of those things that always goes in one direction. Central regulation is just piled on.

This assures that workers from poorer countries are not put in sweatshop positions in the west. Just basic human dignity.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#487
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally know people that work very hard 12 hours a day and their output is stellar. Not only are they creative, but they build some of the most amazing systems I've ever come across in record time. They're handsomely paid with equity and monetary compensation. I work in a startup with 45 top notch engineers.

Two questions would be: 1) do they actually work 12 hours a day, or have they found a way to appear to do so? and 2) how long have they done this for? When I was at my first startup, I had periods of 16 hour days, but after a few years of this I would not go back.

Exactly.

There's a huge difference between being at work 12 hours a day and actually doing something productive with that time.

Japan is an excellent example of this, in their office culture you never leave before the boss does and try to be at the office before them. People spend 12+ hours at work and don't produce more than other people who work sensible hours.

Coronavirus and remote works might be a savior for that culture.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#488
post #324

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Have you considered moving to the US? But honestly the pay gap is not due to labour laws, at least not directly. It's because there's a war between the big tech firms to acquire talent which doesn't exist the same way in Europe.

I have actually seriously considered it, and this international company is one of the reasons why I joined it because of the opportunity to relocate. US also has much better opportunities for entrepreneurship and other things in my opinion. Simply due to scale of English speaking crowd and of course people there are more likely to buy things. But it would require coming out of my comfort zone so much. I have a girlfr…

> Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US?

Less regulation. Facebook would've hit multiple EU privacy laws before it got even medium-sized.

Uber, Doordash and others would've never gotten past EU labor laws. They're having trouble even now.

And yes, the US has a huge concentration of enthusiastic talent willing to do pretty much anything as long as it's "disruptive". Also the US has ridiculous amounts of people wit millions to waste on said disruptive ideas. (Like over-engineered juice presses).

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely get 3-4x less than US in the EU country where I live. But who cares.. I like the low-pressure life here. Rents are lower than the US too. We have socialised healthcare, safe gun-free cities. That's worth a lot more than a number on a bank statement. I hear that in the US people will lose their healthcare when they lose a job and it could cost $1000 a month (which is more than my monthly rent)! Here it's…

If you have a family, it's more like $2500/month for healthcare.

And if you have kids, it's like grand per kid for daycare right?

The US tech sector is _perfect_ for a single male engineer, who doesn't have any health issues. You can work 16 hour days, sleep on the office sofa and earn six-seven figures before you're 30.

But as someone who's definitely not 30 any more, with a family and health issues there is no way I'm even considering moving to the US.

I could easily triple or quadruple my take-home pay, but I'd be taking all the safeties off my, and my family's, life. Not a fan.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#490
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get full pay for a sick day and I don't have a cap on sick days. And yet, I have not called in sick in the last two years. Just because people could do something, doesn't mean that they will do it. The people at our company do not spend all of their time making the system more unreliable so that they'd be paid more to be on call. Hell, if you asked the developers, most of them would probably love to spend more time…

This! I hate the perverse incentive that many americans try to push about sick leave, overtime etc. The truth of the matter is that most people actually want to do their job. Do people abuse sick leave - yes, but it is certainly the minority of sick days taken. In fact leave is undervalued as a concept by most US employers/employees, various studies have found that workers who take more vacation and work less hours a…

This. It used to be normal to be pride of your craft. You do your best because that's what you do.

Now it seems that true craftsmen are the exception now, people are just hustlers in it for the money. Do it as cheap and fast as possible, bill fas much as you can and off to the next job.

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