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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#391

Post by notreallytrue »

chrisseaton wrote: post #386
notreallytrue wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In this case apparently it's fine for it to stop with a dead person. People that do a job where they can save lives accept the fact that saving lives is not granted. People don't die because someone is slacking. Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

> People don't die because someone is slacking. Not sure where you read this argument?

That's a terrible apology...

Free time is a right

If someone dies during your free time it's not your responsibility

Besides: US have the worst life expectation of the whole west.

You should ask yourself why.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#392

Post by cr1895 »

donatj wrote: post #96
Blahah wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't a reasonable policy at all. If you are sick for weeks you have no vacation time. That's bad for everyone involved.

I'm pretty sure the people ITT are going to disagree with me, but vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity. If I missed weeks of work I wouldn't also take a vacation that year regardless.

>vacation is a luxury, sick days are a necessity.

In many places (Europe, generally?), vacation days are earned. At least in the Netherlands if you were absent for weeks due to illness (for which there is no fixed pool of days), and decided not to take any vacation days, you'd either have some of your vacation days rolled over to the next year or they'd be paid out to you with salary and taxed.

It's not a luxury in the slightest. You'd have earned them just as you earned your wages.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#393

Post by GekkePrutser »

notreallytrue wrote: post #385
GekkePrutser wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exactly! And knowing there is all this crap waiting when you get back is also not helping to relax. I'd rather spend 10 minutes every day on my vacation making sure things are good and fixing small issues, it gives me a feeling nothing is getting out of control. Besides, I like my job. It's not the saltmines.

> it gives me a feeling nothing is getting out of control. I think many of us in technology feel the same, the trick is to repress the control freak inside you and enjoy your free time while someone whose job is to fix these problems works on them.

But fixing issues is something I enjoy :) And I can't hang out on the beach all day on my vacation, I get bored too quickly.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#394

Post by efdee »

treis wrote: post #270
colejohnson66 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a balance. But the point GP is making (it seems) is that if “shit [does] hit the fan,” you should be paid overtime for it, not have it be part of your job. It’s a cultural difference really.

It doesn't really work because the incentives become misaligned. It becomes a good thing for workers to have things go wrong and for them to be inefficient with their time. Organizations end up much less flexible because they then don't trust their workers not to milk them. Ultimately it changes from paying someone to get a job done to paying them for hours worked. Anyone that's hired a plumber knows that you get far…

If you pay someone to get a job done, that sounds like a contractor. If you pay someone for their hours worked, that's a salaried employee.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#395

Post by notreallytrue »

chrisseaton wrote: post #379
notreallytrue wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you realise in some fields work not getting completed on time could in some cases cause people to die? It doesn't work like that. > Sometimes there is an emergency, and a professional saying 'sorry nope on vacation Why are they relying on someone that is on vacation in the first place? Are firemen supposed to not go on holiday ever during their work life? That's simply the symptom of very bad management and on a…

> Why are they relying on someone that is on vacation in the first place? Sometimes there are only so many people who can solve a problem and society can't afford to have an excess number of them sitting around doing nothing in case there is an emergency. > Are firemen supposed to not go on holiday ever during their work life? Firemen, police, politicians, military, are all subject to getting recalled from leave if t…

> Sometimes there are only so many people who can solve a problem

That's a very small subset of the entire workforce.

Maybe one in a million or less

> No it's reality!

It's not.

> Look at how many people criticise presidents who are 'golfing' when there is a crisis and life is being lost.

They are right.

The president is not a salaried worker, it's the president.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#396

Post by chrisseaton »

notreallytrue wrote: post #391
chrisseaton wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't die because someone is slacking. Not sure where you read this argument?

That's a terrible apology... Free time is a right If someone dies during your free time it's not your responsibility Besides: US have the worst life expectation of the whole west. You should ask yourself why.

> That's a terrible apology...

I'm not apologising for anything. I never said anything about 'slacking'? Just confused where you got this idea.

> If someone dies during your free time it's not your responsibility

This isn't reality - look at how people criticise presidents who are golfing during a national crisis where people are dying.

> US have the worst life expectation of the whole west

This article is about the EU isn't it? What's the US got to do with it?

> You should ask yourself why.

I don't know why the US does anything. Why do I need to explain it?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#397

Post by cr1895 »

ghaff wrote: post #383
cr1895 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why wouldn't you want all the sick+personal days to use as you see fit? Another thing that is important to point out is that leave days are sometimes an earned entitlement ultimately paid out to you if not taken, whereas sick leave isn't.

That's a good point. It may also be worth pointing out that's the case with "unlimited" vacation as well. Even if you're not cynical about whether employees will be able to take a reasonable amount in practice, it's certainly the case that nothing needs to be paid out when you leave. Which for someone moving around jobs a fair bit can add up over time.

From what I understand-and perhaps it varies by state-it's just left to the benevolence of your employer whether your accrued vacation days are actually paid out to you or if they just disappear in the US if you for example leave a company or don't use all of them within a certain time.

It's kind of insane to me that they can just be taken away like that.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#398

Post by notreallytrue »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #393
notreallytrue wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it gives me a feeling nothing is getting out of control. I think many of us in technology feel the same, the trick is to repress the control freak inside you and enjoy your free time while someone whose job is to fix these problems works on them.

But fixing issues is something I enjoy :) And I can't hang out on the beach all day on my vacation, I get bored too quickly.

That's another thing entirely

But being bored is part of the free time

Boring is good, not bad

Edit: I love it too, but when I'm bored I work on some side project (never completed one!) instead

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#399

Post by efdee »

treis wrote: post #257
Symbiote wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the American developer happier in life than the Finn? Do they have time to enjoy all that extra money? The 40 hours is averaged over several weeks (normally). You can have an extra 3 hours, but leave work at lunchtime the next day.

The American developer can retire in 1/3 to 1/2 the time of the Finn. And yes, I'd say working a bit more for that is an obvious yes.

Are you saying American developers retire around 40-50yo?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#400

Post by nraynaud »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #265
vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

While it seems good I am afraid as an European I will start getting even smaller salary compared to US counterparts. There will be less incentive to hire someone from Europe for international companies. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I work for an international company and I already get paid around 2-3x less than US counterparts at the same level. I do work a lot, but I have accepted the fact if it means I can…

on average US citizens retire later than Europeans and die earlier afterwards.
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