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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

m.dw.com

451–460 of 540 posts

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> soldiers In my country they have 28 days of paid holidays every year Ant it's still one of the few jobs left where they can retire after 15 years, 6 months, one day of work > Police In my country they have 28 days of paid holidays, 35 hours a week contract In my country there are 1/10 of the homicides per 100 thousands people of the US

And (I presume, don't know what country you're in) they're both legally liable to be recalled from leave? That was my point - not what their retirement ages is.

There are jobs where you have to provide the service, it's a crime to interrupt it for futile reasons.

They are not liable if they don't go to work on their free time, ever.

Healthcare, public transportation, firemen, etc. they can't not provide the service, it's called (sorry the bad translation) "interruption of public service"

Yes, they can be re-called on duty, but it happens rarely.

They are payed extra time if that happens (sometimes the hourly pay is double of the regular one)

Soldiers can't even be sent on a war mission if they don't volunteer to it.

They usually do because the pay is astronomical (4-5 times the regular one, sometimes more)

But they are not supposed to.

They can still not show if they have reason: in this 2020 for example being COVID positive or simply sick.

It happened the opposite this year, many doctors and nurses volunteered to help.

They are employees of the State after all and they serve the public.

In the private sector you have to be compensated for working extra hours, if they don't, the employers are liable.

If they ask you to work on your free time, a judge could (and usually does) condemn the employer and the employee gets a compensation.

My parents worked for the national healthcare and when my mom was expecting me, she discovered she had a condition that caused two previous miscarriages.

My parents worked shift of 12 hours 5 days straight, they assumed it was too taxing on the body of a pregnant woman with a condition, so between me and my sister the hospital put her on paid sick leave for 36 months.

My country is Italy, our salaries are lower than countries like US where such protections don't exist, but at least we are protected from abuses (they still happen of course, but it's a risk for the employer)

One of the benefit of the system is that people know they have rights and will stand up for them

If you accept to work gratis in your free time, you're doing a disservice to the entire category.

Of course there are people abusing of these rights, but in general it's a good tradeoff that benefits the larger population instead of rewarding only the workaholics.

And don't even get me started on why being a workaholic society is bad for those who can't work more because they are not in good health or worse...

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#452
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the EU ruling? What is wrong with it?

Regulation always has unintended side-effects. In this case I don't think the regulation is necessary, which effectively makes it bad by default, because it adds complication and reduces flexibility of both employers and workers. Slight tangent, but I also think governments start calling everything a "right" at their own peril. That's something I found incredibly refreshing about Andrew Yang's presidential run. Unlik…

I lean back and forth on the language. One emphasizes the inherent good that a policy will have, in and of itself. The other emphasizes the knock-on effects that will result from a policy. In this case, I believe both are true. First, that it is unconscionable to have lack of healthcare in a developed nation. Second, that providing healthcare will give good economic benefits. Which of these I emphasize at any given point depends on who I am talking to.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#453
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(in America) There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. Whether you work 35 or 60 hours, it’s the same pay.[a] As a result, employers don’t have to worry about overtime pay, only burnt out employees (but entry and junior levels are disposable, right? /s) [a]: This also leads to the employer expecting one to be “on call” 24/7 regardles…

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

This sort of thing makes the (Canadian) hair on the back of my neck stand up. I can see a collective agreement for a govt employees, or for a specific set of trades within an industry. But for an entire sector?

As others in the thread have pointed out, these types of arrangements don't always correspond to the reality of the business. If you are, for example, paid a yearly bonus, then the concept of "unpaid overtime" doesn't really apply.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#454
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are we punishing here, though? If we gave everyone all their days off in one pool then all the days could be used. Having the extra rules about sick vs personal just benefits the company. EDIT: I guess we are saying that the company benefits if you are not sick, and the healthy people don't get more days off than sick people. For people who would have trouble managing their time, like an illness late in the year,…

But it's not a pool of sick days + personal days, with the "sick" days only available to you if you are sick. I imagine the situation in Norway is pretty similar to that in Netherlands, where if you're sick, you're sick- and beyond a certain point you are obliged to consult a doctor. Time management plays no role.

I'm not sure if I follow. In some jobs workers are given 20 PTO days to use as sick or vacation as they please. In other jobs workers are give 10 vacation days and 10 sick days.

I was saying that it seems better to have the PTO days to use however you want than sick days that aren't supoosed to be used for non-sickness reasons.

Are you saying that it is normal for people to use the sick days when they are not really sick?

You mention needing to consult a doctor at a certain point. This is not uncommon in the U.S., with the employer wanting a doctor's note after more than two days of absence. (As an aside I always thought that was a burden on the employee, to have to pay for a doctors visit because the employer doesn't trust them. Not as big a deal if the employer would pay for the visit, but they don't. Certainly not a perfect world we live in...)

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#455
post #426
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hiring more people might not get the same amount done as a few working really hard. That is highly dependent on when the new employee is added to the project. If it's done early (as a result of proper planning), it's most likely not gonna hurt.

One of the key points of the mythical man month is that communication overhead starts taking a larger and larger chunk of the total productivity as you scale the number of people involved, just to keep everyone synced up and rowing in the same direction. It's not really based on when the people are added.

There is definitely such thing as too many people.

But with reasonable amount of people, if you start with the full team at the beginning, you can assign different responsibilities to different people. For example, one can do database, one can do web API, one can do web design, one can do integration with other systems, one can build and maintain continuous integration; you can also divide the domain knowledge among multiple people. Each person can focus on doing their part in such way that the others do not need to understand every single detail, and only use the agreed API.

However, if you add a new person late in the project... all simple things were probably already done, and all difficult things require a lot of knowledge about the existing code, that other team members already know, but if they spend their time explaining it to the new member, then their own work gets slower, so the overall speed reduces. (And yes, given enough time, the new member would learn everything and become just as productive as the old members. But the thing is, there is not enough time left at that moment.)

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#456
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "confidence" of senior people to push back is greatly enhanced by the fact that they won't be expediently fired for doing so. There's a problem with your country if you can be fired for refusing overtime.

(in America) There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. Whether you work 35 or 60 hours, it’s the same pay.[a] As a result, employers don’t have to worry about overtime pay, only burnt out employees (but entry and junior levels are disposable, right? /s) [a]: This also leads to the employer expecting one to be “on call” 24/7 regardles…

This is why being a contractor is the best idea. You need need me to work 60? I'm billing for every, single hour. 35? Great! I'm going to leave early on Friday and not check my email until Monday morning!

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's another thing entirely But being bored is part of the free time Boring is good, not bad Edit: I love it too, but when I'm bored I work on some side project (never completed one!) instead

For me it's not. Being bored makes me restless, unfulfilled. It gives me a feeling of fulfillment if I can do a bit of work for 10 minutes and help people out.

I understand it, but there are many ways to help.

In my case I've been diagnosed in the spectrum of autism, I know it's my problem if I get easily bored, not because I'm not checking my work email while I'm on holiday.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the end, there is no way around trust. You have to trust the mechanic that they tighten the screws correctly. You have to trust the software developer that they write that does what it should and not something nefarious. You have to trust the salesperson that they don't lie to the customer. Yes, all of these can be checked to some extent, but it will not be possible to fully check everything.

When you said "trust" I wondered who benefits, and my first thought was that the company that doesn't have to deal with the sick days is the winner. The company is trusting to come to work as many days as we physically can? How is that better than just giving everyone the same number of days to manager as sick or personal for themselves?

Well, with ten days of vacation per year, I'd be interesting in any additional time I could take off. But if you have enough (say 25), then I as an employee don't feel that I got the short end of the stick.

It's also a matter of solidarity that those who can support those who can't. In this case, the healthier employees support the ones who are ill.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is California supposed to do that if other states don't? Businesses would quickly move to other states if the tax difference became too high. The only reason California can get away with the worker protections it has is because of its uniquely favorable weather, geography, productive land, and other resources. No state can offer taxpayer funded healthcare, because then the people receiving more from healthcare th…

What do worker protections have to do with taxes? Again, what is stopping California Democrats from putting into place similar workplace protections as exist in the EU? In Germany for example, it's illegal for worker's to be surveilled using spyware apps that are permitted for use by every business in California. Why are Democrats incapable of addressing this? Housing and healthcare are more difficult problems, but o…

Worker protections raise the cost of doing business. Is it hypothetical that manufacturing facilities relocated to China to be able to sell products at cheaper prices than their competitors?

Is it hypothetical that a business that a retail business offers their employees lavish benefits and sells commodity products will be put out of business by lower prices from Walmart/Target/Amazon/Best Buy/etc?

Both of the above examples have happened, and capital flight is real. A few countries with better safety nets, who don't have a comparable emigration situation like in the US, does not mean that one of the two parties in the US is not trying at least a little bit.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solving the market failure looks like UBI. I bet a lot of people who think unions are tyranny really don't like the idea of "free money".

This is a bizarre generalization. I'd be willing to bet that most of the people who supported UBI before its moment in the political spotlight in the last five years are not as sanguine about unions as the average person on the left. This certainly describes me: I believe in heavy redistribution and taxation (especially of land!) but think that the left (which I consider myself a part of) has a consistent problem wit…

Both unions and UBI try to address the same problem: make it so that people do not have to choose between abuse and starvation.

But they are completely different approaches to this problem. For example, unions do not protect unemployed people, while UBI protects everyone. On the other hand, a union is something you could create tomorrow at your workplace without waiting for the rest of the country to change their minds.

In some sense, they are competing solutions, because if we had UBI, unions would be less necessary, because everyone who feels abused would have the opportunity to walk away... without ruining their life.

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