Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination • Hacker News Board

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#61

Post by FruityCoconut » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:20 AM UTC

mandelbrotwurst wrote: post #59

FruityCoconut wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely 0% chance I'll be letting that anywhere near my family. And I was a biomedical scientist formerly. Over my dead body (one way or another).

Why?

The risks far outweigh the rewards. We're deliberately injecting ourselves with foreign genetic material that hijacks our cells' machinery to produce viral proteins by design. For my consent, I don't have anywhere near enough faith yet in the people hastily developing such technology, their employers striving to be first to market, or the bureaucrats desperate to give their electorates the impression that they have everything under control.

Maybe if I lived in a large, diverse city, I would be forced to consider it (I would far more likely move my family somewhere safer). But where I am fortunate to live, it makes absolutely no sense.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#62

Post by FruityCoconut » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 7:46 AM UTC

Shared404 wrote: post #57

FruityCoconut wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stereotypical conspiracy theorist hides away at home with tin foil head-coverings to keep the mysterious airborne pathogens away. Now, that's "normal people", while "conspiracy theorists" are those carrying on unfazed.

No. Note: The "No." here applies to your implied message, not your literal wording. Conspiracy theorists are the ones who deny science. Conspiracy theorists are the ones who refuse vaccines without reason. Conspiracy theorists are the ones who believe in large scale fraud with no evidence. Conspiracy theorists are the ones who think "This virus is a hoax". I guess any of the above could also qualify for straight up s…

Being on the periphery of groups you'd likely describe as "conspiracy theorists", practically all of this is strawmanning.

This has become more of a political issue than a scientific issue. I saw a video of a doctor(?) streaming a video alone in his own home in Germany, when armed police stormed his home and arrested him for objecting to the narrative. That's not science. Anyway, can we really blame the common man for distrusting "science" when so much of it has become a shallow tool for political/social activism in recent years?

Nobody is refusing vaccines without reason. That you think it is without reason is either disingenuous or uninformed. And I'd add that the idea that people should accept an injection simply because they can't present a satisfactory reason for refusal is pernicious. The burden is not on them.

There are some who believe in wide scale fraud without evidence, I suppose, but that's a small minority. Most are simply unsatisfied by the evidence in favour, and sensibly don't take the prospect of a mysterious injection lightly. Regardless, I would argue there are far more people who believe in large scale competent benevolence with no evidence (or even evidence to the contrary).

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#63

Post by FruityCoconut » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 9:01 AM UTC

Shared404 wrote: post #58

FruityCoconut wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely 0% chance I'll be letting that anywhere near my family. And I was a biomedical scientist formerly. Over my dead body (one way or another).

> There is absolutely 0% chance I'll be letting that anywhere near my family. I hope any children you may have are 18. > And I was a biomedical scientist formerly. Well we can see why it was formerly. > Over my dead body (one way or another). Could we maybe avoid putting others at risk?

>Could we maybe avoid putting others at risk?

I agree. Let's not inject people with experimental vaccines rushed to market under significant political pressure. Let's not pressure strangers' decisions either way.

Far more money in this career path. I've made more some days writing junk code than I ever made in a year in a lab. It's easy to see why some scientists might be incentivised by external factors...

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#64

Post by 67868018 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 1:09 PM UTC

hprotagonist wrote: post #14

I certainly intend to stay masked up post-jab(s). I think a month or so after the final dose it will be at the point where any viral load i might be spreading would be pretty much trustable to be at trivial levels, so that's my minimum duration. After that, I'll continue to follow public guidance from local health folks. I don't mind masking up for flights/travel for a bit, or whatever, either, if it shakes out that…

Being vaccinated doesn't mean your body instantly kills any virus it comes in contact with. It can still use your body to replicate and spread until your immune system properly tidies it up.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#65

Post by elicash » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

_skel wrote: post #42

elicash wrote: post #23

I've seen this point made repeatedly, but haven't seen what scientists think is LIKELY -- based on similar vaccines, based on initial data, whatever. I don't know if scientists GENUINELY have no clue, or if maybe we think it'll likely be good news but can't say it yet because we're worried that people will get a vaccine and then behave irresponsibly. It sounds like we're going to start giving this vaccine out without…

The less questionable information that circulates, the better. There are already many conspiracy theories about this vaccine. Scientists shouldn't be out there causing more confusion or giving people a kernel of doubt that they can blow up into another conspiracy theory.

Is it your take that public health officials shouldn't have been recommending masks before studies came out specifically on covid?

Or should they have followed scientists from Asian nations that said to wear them because even though we don't have all the info, it looks a lot like other viruses we've seen where masks were helpful?

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#66

Post by Shared404 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

FruityCoconut wrote: post #63

Shared404 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is absolutely 0% chance I'll be letting that anywhere near my family. I hope any children you may have are 18. > And I was a biomedical scientist formerly. Well we can see why it was formerly. > Over my dead body (one way or another). Could we maybe avoid putting others at risk?

>Could we maybe avoid putting others at risk? I agree. Let's not inject people with experimental vaccines rushed to market under significant political pressure. Let's not pressure strangers' decisions either way. Far more money in this career path. I've made more some days writing junk code than I ever made in a year in a lab. It's easy to see why some scientists might be incentivised by external factors...

> Let's not inject people with experimental vaccines rushed to market under significant political pressure.

I'm less worried about political pressure, and more worried about the very real pressure being applied by the virus. There have been tests which have been safe thus far, and in my opinion there is less risk in moving forward with testing and distribution of the vaccines then not doing so.

> Let's not pressure strangers' decisions either way.

I'm of mixed feelings on this, and my overall opinion is that it depends on who all is able to take the vaccine.

If there are few restrictions, maybe this would be okay. However, if there are enough restrictions that there will be a sizable number of people who cannot take it, we need to get as many as possible out to try to protect them.

[Edit: This is referring to legal pressure. I am of the opinion that it is not unreasonable to encourage others to take vaccines if they are able.]

> Far more money in this career path. I've made more some days writing junk code than I ever made in a year in a lab. It's easy to see why some scientists might be incentivised by external factors...

First of all, I'd like to apologize for my ad hominem attack earlier. That was uncalled for.

Second, I find it hard to believe that scientists would be pushed to do something actually dangerous on this sort of scale, and like I said earlier, I find the idea of not combating the virus more dangerous then moving forward as quickly with vaccines as can be safely done. However, it's quite possible that I just have too much faith left in humanity.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#67

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #56

whimsicalism wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I agree with GPs concern, but this comment doesn't address it whatsoever.

It absolutely does address it. The Pfizer chairman is saying he doesn't know whether you can get a spreadable COVID-19 infection after the vaccine has been administered, but before it takes full effect. That's an entirely different thing from the vaccination CAUSING an infectious case of COVID-19.

> That's an entirely different thing from the vaccination CAUSING an infectious case of COVID-19.

If you read carefully, you'd see that's not the concern.

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#68

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #39

solinent wrote: post #10

I hate to be that person, but I'm personally more worried about the virus mutating under the increased selection pressure. We only defeated polio with a >99% effective vaccine, and the research for this vaccine isn't even available.

Is this really a concern? Pruning gene lines from the gene pool only benefits the surviving individuals if it leaves resources on the table for these survivors to be fruitful and multiply, growing to exploit their new niche. If there are variants of COVID-19 the vaccine doesn't protect against, is there any reason to think they would have been crowded out by the original variants? Wouldn't their ability to bypass imm…

> immunity gained from a vaccine

99% effectiveness from natural immunity vs 90-95% for vaccine

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#69

Post by saalweachter » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #68

saalweachter wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this really a concern? Pruning gene lines from the gene pool only benefits the surviving individuals if it leaves resources on the table for these survivors to be fruitful and multiply, growing to exploit their new niche. If there are variants of COVID-19 the vaccine doesn't protect against, is there any reason to think they would have been crowded out by the original variants? Wouldn't their ability to bypass imm…

> immunity gained from a vaccine 99% effectiveness from natural immunity vs 90-95% for vaccine

Yeah, but isn't that the vaccine only provoking an immune response that leads to immunity in 90-95% of the people to whom it is administered? Not that the immunity, when gained, is less?

Re: Pfizer chairman: We're not sure if someone can transmit Covid after vaccination

#70

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #69

whimsicalism wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> immunity gained from a vaccine 99% effectiveness from natural immunity vs 90-95% for vaccine

Yeah, but isn't that the vaccine only provoking an immune response that leads to immunity in 90-95% of the people to whom it is administered? Not that the immunity, when gained, is less?

This is a relevant and good question that I don't know the answer to.