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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#201

Post by brtkdotse »

MereInterest wrote: post #47
matsemann wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

Absolutely agreed, and that sounds like a reasonable solution all around. Having a pool of sick days leads to the same situation, just with different circumstances. (e.g. Somebody who has a planned surgery for long-term health issues needing to save up sick days to use for the recovery.)

> Somebody who has a planned surgery for long-term health issues needing to save up sick days to use for the recovery

I don't want to be "that guy" but Jeez Louise does this sound like total dystopia when viewed from the outside. What would happen if you didn't have sick days saved?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#202

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

pc86 wrote: post #118
hobs wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a huge waste of a doctor to get a note saying someone has the snuffles or diarrhea. In america you have to realize that getting that note would actually cost people money and time.

Not only that but how many people can get into a doctor the same day for the note? If they get sick on Monday you're potentially forcing someone to choose between unpaid time off, burning a day of PTO, or going into the doctor's office Wednesday or Thursday (if they're lucky) and saying "I feel find but had a cold Monday, can I get a note?" And how to juggle the logistics of that Wed/Thur doctor's visit with work? I…

> Not only that but how many people can get into a doctor the same day for the note?

In Finland, where this same system exists, each urban neighborhood has its own local clinic that in large part exists just for this reason: someone feeling ill can call early in the morning, be seen a little later that morning, and get a note that they can show their employer the next day (or whenever they recover).

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#203

Post by mediascreen »

As a European I hate these types of EU initiatives. Why not let member states decide on this themselves?

When Sweden voted to join the EU there was a lot of talk about the subsidiary principle[0], but it seems almost completely forgotten now.

I guess one could argue that it affects the internal labour market in some way, but so could pretty much any issue. I would love to see more members of the EU parliament vote against proposals like this, but I guess it's hard to be on record as saying no to something you might be in favour of - if raised on another level.

[0] "Specifically, it is the principle whereby the EU does not take action (except in the areas that fall within its exclusive competence), unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level." (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/subsidiarity.html)

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#204

Post by treis »

Hamuko wrote: post #182
colejohnson66 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(in America) There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. Whether you work 35 or 60 hours, it’s the same pay.[a] As a result, employers don’t have to worry about overtime pay, only burnt out employees (but entry and junior levels are disposable, right? /s) [a]: This also leads to the employer expecting one to be “on call” 24/7 regardles…

> There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked. If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well. I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer)…

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make.

The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday".

It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the fan at inconvenient hours and you need to respond. If not, you have to have routine 24/7 coverage which gets really expensive really fast ultimately leading to lower salaries for developers.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#205

Post by coldtea »

vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

>otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload.

The workload can increase arbitrarily. It should be confined to what can be completed within working hours - the extra work over that should be an exception under special circumstances (e.g. a sudden order), not the norm.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#206

Post by CommanderData »

aminozuur wrote: post #87
izacus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much all of legal frameworks in EU places have specific exceptions for "On-Call" type work and they usually demand extra compensation and clear agreement between the employee and employer. I think it's kinda self-evident that this would be the case?

>>"I think it's kinda self-evident that this would be the case?" I've owned a small company in the Netherlands that employed people. At times, we had to spent lots of money on accountants and lawyers, just to find out certain rules, restrictions, strange regulations. Not even implementing, this was just the cost we payed in energy, attention and money to understand it.

Good.

Regulations exist for reasons. What is your point?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#207

Post by chrisseaton »

gtfoutttt wrote: post #115
vfc1 wrote: post #106

You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. I can't see this soon enough, I have family that answer emails in vacation all the time, that get phone calls like its nothing. I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Most ma…

>I know people that connect everyday from home to the office network to work one or two hours (extra) otherwise it's impossible to keep up with the workload. Then the work doesn't get completed on time! That's bad management not hiring enough people, not the fault of the employee. SMH y'all IT people need a union.

> Then the work doesn't get completed on time!

Do you realise in some fields work not getting completed on time could in some cases cause people to die?

Sometimes there is an emergency, and a professional saying 'sorry nope on vacation your fault for not having enough people to cover every eventuality' just isn't reasonable.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#208

Post by gowld »

pc86 wrote: post #109
mikem170 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

That's why it shouldn't be a pool. If you're sick, don't work. It shouldn't burn your vacation time to spend it in bed or throwing up in the bathroom.

But what if you just "don't feel good"? Most people don't go to a doctor whenever they feel a bit down.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#209

Post by tcldr »

OneGuy123 wrote: post #180
tcldr wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You got to admit that the EU at least has the courage to take some controversial measures in the best interest of their people. Do you think it's a coincidence they get such a bad press?

As an European I can tell you that Europeans feel completely disconnected from those EU politicians, they do whatever they please and there is no real input from anyone. The isolated themselves and then force countries into submission via monetary fines if they don't get in line.

That's exactly the line most of the press seem to tout – and it's that 'feeling' which has been exploited by those who see the EU as an obstacle to their regulatory goals or vision.

The fact is that you get to vote for your MEP if you choose to, and they in turn for the commission. It's weird that on the one hand people say the EU "[does] whatever they please and there is no real input from anyone" and on the other have no idea about the EU parliamentary process. It is what you make it.

The EU isn't perfect, but I'm always surprised by those in EU countries who think that it would be in their long-term interests to forge a path alone in a bi-polar geopolitical sphere dominated by the US and China, rather than club together with their EU neighbours and have a voice on the world stage.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#210

Post by SmokeyHamster »

Rights should be restrictions on government. Not mandates on personal and private business behavior.

I'm not even sure what is driving this. The EU already has a very lax work ethic. Is there really a problem in Europe with people having to be connected when not at work? What about the jobs that require a person be on-call?

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