Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

m.dw.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 540 posts

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#81

Post by detaro »

jeromenerf wrote: post #68
hawktheslayer wrote: post #11

I also see the opposite impact both for me and my staff. It's very difficult to say no to the constant demands of children at home and the lack of physical distance makes it hard for me to concentrate on my work during regular work hours.

My father gets upset with this depiction. I don’t have children, so I can’t have a good feel of how much of a boomer rant it is. His point was that my sister and I were not difficult to manage, while he was working at home. He was just telling us to leave him alone and play outside. Or play legos in our rooms. The happy 80s. I hear from my friends that working from home with kids is not manageable in a flat. Possible…

You and your sister probably weren't at home the entire day, but went to daycare/school? Whereas now families now don't have practice or established routines, in many cases the kids are at home all the time (school/daycare closed) and without much contact/playtime with other kids. I assume that's a large difference.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#82

Post by Ekaros »

bob1029 wrote: post #56
aminozuur wrote: post #32

What about the employees who are happy to stay ready 'on-call', in a position where they are payed more then they've ever made? Could the employee make an agreement with his/her employer, or would such an agreement be deemed 'unlawful' under the new law?

This is the concern I have with these policies. I completely understand (and mostly agree with) the general case they are going for in which we should not be abusing employees who are susceptible to abuse. There are classes of individuals who are far more easy to manipulate into hellish work circumstances than others. Those on work visas are particularly on edge. But, these policies also put tricky restrictions aroun…

I think this really isn't for cases where workers are happy to work longer days. But for situations where groups like managers are expected to work outside regular working hours constantly. And this also comes to having clear laws that companies can't retaliate(fire) someone if they don't work outside working hours.

So if you are a developer and want to do 60 hour week writing code. You could do that under flexible hours. It is just that the employer can't force you to do that or expect you to regularly work outside regular hours.

On other hand being "on-call" is something different. It can be compensated and hours worked will be considered overtime with multiplier.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#83

Post by [deleted] »

gattilorenz wrote: post #49
maxerickson wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other side of it, it's nice to get the time off even if you don't get sick. Companies will tend to argue that sick time is only for when you are sick.

> Companies will tend to argue that sick time is only for when you are sick. To me this somehow... makese sense? Of course a burnout counts as sick time, but for just getting "time off" there's vacation days, which are (in Europe) mandatory. Mandatory as in "your contract grants you at least X days off" and often "you need to take at least X-Y days off in one year"

[deleted]

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#84

Post by rapsey »

ekianjo wrote: post #69
rapsey wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that does not hold for everyone. If you have an office room in your house you can keep children at bay. Lots of parents are fine with working from home.

Oh so you lock yourself in your office room?

If the kid is too young to understand the issue why not?

Someone clue me in why that is so bad.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#85

Post by thaeli »

maxerickson wrote: post #63
gattilorenz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies will tend to argue that sick time is only for when you are sick. To me this somehow... makese sense? Of course a burnout counts as sick time, but for just getting "time off" there's vacation days, which are (in Europe) mandatory. Mandatory as in "your contract grants you at least X days off" and often "you need to take at least X-Y days off in one year"

Context is king. We are talking about banning lumped PTO. Pretty much every company moving from lumped PTO to vacation+sick is going to make vacation smaller than the lumped PTO.

Most companies are going to use any change in leave policies to decrease total leave, if they're allowed to do so. This happened when pooled PTO became common as well - moving from, say, 10 days vacation and 10 days sick leave to 15 days PTO.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#86

Post by rapsey »

alias_neo wrote: post #76
rapsey wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that does not hold for everyone. If you have an office room in your house you can keep children at bay. Lots of parents are fine with working from home.

Although I don't agree with the person you're replying to, your suggestion is equally as "partially-valid". My wife and I have a 1 year old, and we're both professionals who need to focus on work, hold meetings, and generally concentrate on our work. Which of us should look after our 1 year old while the other keeps the child at bay by hiding in the office? The fact of the matter is; our homes were generally not crea…

This is why I said does not hold for everyone. It is dependent on location of the person, income, family situation, housing, etc.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#87

Post by aminozuur »

izacus wrote: post #80
aminozuur wrote: post #32

What about the employees who are happy to stay ready 'on-call', in a position where they are payed more then they've ever made? Could the employee make an agreement with his/her employer, or would such an agreement be deemed 'unlawful' under the new law?

Pretty much all of legal frameworks in EU places have specific exceptions for "On-Call" type work and they usually demand extra compensation and clear agreement between the employee and employer. I think it's kinda self-evident that this would be the case?

>>"I think it's kinda self-evident that this would be the case?"

I've owned a small company in the Netherlands that employed people. At times, we had to spent lots of money on accountants and lawyers, just to find out certain rules, restrictions, strange regulations. Not even implementing, this was just the cost we payed in energy, attention and money to understand it.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#88

Post by detaro »

donatj wrote: post #46
MereInterest wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

I disagree with your assessment in the strongest terms as I have personally experienced them being separate as achieving the opposite most of my 15 year career. Places I had worked including my current employer, vacation days need to be scheduled at least a week+ in advance. As a person who gets sick a lot I almost always end up having to take unpaid days off when I’m sick because I blew though my 3-5 sick days. Plac…

From a perspective of many other places of the world, the idea that you can "use up" your sick days if you are actually sick just doesn't make any sense. So the unspoken assumption is "sick days shouldn't cut into your vacation, and obviously sick days are effectively unlimited"

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#89

Post by wincy »

mikem170 wrote: post #53
matsemann wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

I have merged PTO but generally there’s an expectation that you plan in advance for vacation. So if I’m just having a shitty day even if there’s nothing physically wrong with me I’ll take PTO and say I’m “not feeling great”. Manager has never complained about it, always a “feel better”.

It’s not a lie but then the next day at standup I make sure to say how much better I’m feeling. I strongly suspect all my coworkers do this too.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#90

Post by Blahah »

donatj wrote: post #67
MereInterest wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the problem is in having such a small pool of sick days, not in the concept of separation. By no fault of your own, by getting sick more often, you are forced to give up income (current situation) or to give up your vacation (merged PTO). Neither of those is an acceptable situation, and the solution is to have more reasonable sick leave policies.

PTO is the more reasonable policy. I have weeks of sick days, it’s great.

It isn't a reasonable policy at all. If you are sick for weeks you have no vacation time. That's bad for everyone involved.
Post reply on HN