EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home • Hacker News Board

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#61

Post by maxerickson » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:54 PM UTC

MereInterest wrote: post #52

maxerickson wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other side of it, it's nice to get the time off even if you don't get sick. Companies will tend to argue that sick time is only for when you are sick.

I'm fine with that, so long as there is also a reasonable amount of vacation time. The US really needs to get with the times and have basic workers' rights. Currently, the average number of vacation days per year in the US (17 days), is less than the statutory minimum number of days in many countries. Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/statista-how-far-behind-us-i...

Part time employees pretty much don't get any vacation, so I doubt that is the real average (the article says 15, which still probably isn't the real average). BLS says ~16 for full time, so there you go: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm

That's also a hell of a 'so long as'. If you ban lumped PTO and don't establish a robust minimum, lots of people aren't going to get what they would prefer.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#62

Post by pavlov » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #53

matsemann wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

> “... folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.”

Which is cause and which is consequence? Maybe Norwegians are more responsible at work because employers don’t exploit them so openly and the law gives them more protection.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#63

Post by maxerickson » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

gattilorenz wrote: post #49

maxerickson wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other side of it, it's nice to get the time off even if you don't get sick. Companies will tend to argue that sick time is only for when you are sick.

> Companies will tend to argue that sick time is only for when you are sick. To me this somehow... makese sense? Of course a burnout counts as sick time, but for just getting "time off" there's vacation days, which are (in Europe) mandatory. Mandatory as in "your contract grants you at least X days off" and often "you need to take at least X-Y days off in one year"

Context is king. We are talking about banning lumped PTO. Pretty much every company moving from lumped PTO to vacation+sick is going to make vacation smaller than the lumped PTO.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#64

Post by baobabKoodaa » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #53

matsemann wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization to think that the answer is either "yes" or "no". Of course some people will lie and cheat their way through life, so yes, some people will pretend to be sick in order to use up their X sick days. And yes, we could make it harder to cheat by making rules, such as always requiring a doctor's notice for sick days. Is the problem large enough that you need to prevent people from cheating, or should you make a tradeoff where you allow some people to cheat, in order to reduce epidemics (which are excarcebated by forcing people to go to work sick)? I guess the answer depends on society.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#65

Post by germinalphrase » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #46

MereInterest wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

I disagree with your assessment in the strongest terms as I have personally experienced them being separate as achieving the opposite most of my 15 year career. Places I had worked including my current employer, vacation days need to be scheduled at least a week+ in advance. As a person who gets sick a lot I almost always end up having to take unpaid days off when I’m sick because I blew though my 3-5 sick days. Plac…

Or require more than 3-5 sick days. Hardly seems adequate.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#66

Post by account42 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #46

MereInterest wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

I disagree with your assessment in the strongest terms as I have personally experienced them being separate as achieving the opposite most of my 15 year career. Places I had worked including my current employer, vacation days need to be scheduled at least a week+ in advance. As a person who gets sick a lot I almost always end up having to take unpaid days off when I’m sick because I blew though my 3-5 sick days. Plac…

There should not be a hard limit on sick days - that's how it works in many countries. If you are sick for too long it might not be your employer that pays, but you should never be cheated out of your vacation for it. Even if you get sick during your vacation, you get those vacation days back here.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#67

Post by donatj » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

MereInterest wrote: post #59

donatj wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your assessment in the strongest terms as I have personally experienced them being separate as achieving the opposite most of my 15 year career. Places I had worked including my current employer, vacation days need to be scheduled at least a week+ in advance. As a person who gets sick a lot I almost always end up having to take unpaid days off when I’m sick because I blew though my 3-5 sick days. Plac…

It sounds like the problem is in having such a small pool of sick days, not in the concept of separation. By no fault of your own, by getting sick more often, you are forced to give up income (current situation) or to give up your vacation (merged PTO). Neither of those is an acceptable situation, and the solution is to have more reasonable sick leave policies.

PTO is the more reasonable policy. I have weeks of sick days, it’s great.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#68

Post by jeromenerf » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

hawktheslayer wrote: post #11

I also see the opposite impact both for me and my staff. It's very difficult to say no to the constant demands of children at home and the lack of physical distance makes it hard for me to concentrate on my work during regular work hours.

My father gets upset with this depiction. I don’t have children, so I can’t have a good feel of how much of a boomer rant it is.

His point was that my sister and I were not difficult to manage, while he was working at home. He was just telling us to leave him alone and play outside. Or play legos in our rooms. The happy 80s.

I hear from my friends that working from home with kids is not manageable in a flat. Possible in a house.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#69

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

rapsey wrote: post #34

hawktheslayer wrote: post #11

I also see the opposite impact both for me and my staff. It's very difficult to say no to the constant demands of children at home and the lack of physical distance makes it hard for me to concentrate on my work during regular work hours.

But that does not hold for everyone. If you have an office room in your house you can keep children at bay. Lots of parents are fine with working from home.

Oh so you lock yourself in your office room?

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#70

Post by silvester23 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #53

matsemann wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year. If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

We have roughly the same regulations in Germany, in my personal experience people do not take advantage by prentending to be sick in any meaningful quantity.

I mean there surely are people out there pushing it to the limit but it's not a problem in general.

As for your point about really getting sick by the end of the year, as long as you have a doctor's note saying you are sick, you can stay at home, no matter how long or often you've been sick before that year. I guess it works similarly in Norway.