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EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

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Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#51
post #33

Luxembourg has some laws like this already, or so I've been told. I worked for a little while on a project with a team based out of the Luxembourg office (Amazon). They mentioned casually that it's illegal for them to be paged from like 10pm to 6am. Not that the company policy forbids it, that the LAW forbids it and the company would be in serious trouble. If the company needs an overnight on-call operator, they have…

Same with Ireland, I believe.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

On the other side of it, it's nice to get the time off even if you don't get sick. Companies will tend to argue that sick time is only for when you are sick.

I'm fine with that, so long as there is also a reasonable amount of vacation time. The US really needs to get with the times and have basic workers' rights. Currently, the average number of vacation days per year in the US (17 days), is less than the statutory minimum number of days in many countries.

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/statista-how-far-behind-us-i...

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

Do people pretend to be sick to use up their X days? Many people want to have as many days off as they can. If so, you could be in the same situation, call in saying your sick to use all your days then really get sick at the end of the year.

If the answer is no, perhaps that is due to cultural differences. It's my impression that folks in Norway are more responsible in many regards compared to Americans.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#54

Love this. I've increasingly seen and heard employers trying to take advantage of the current situation and we need more regulation and protection for workers. People are being asked to do extra and too afraid to speak out especially with so many companies making redundancies. One area of focus for me is sickness and working from home. Sick days should be about rest and recovering both physically and mentally. Often…

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

at a reasonable company, the person in your example would be allowed to accrue negative PTO to go on vacation with their family.

there are pros and cons to merged time off. psychologically, it sucks to burn "vacation" to take time off to recover from an illness. on the flip side, there is no reason for my manager to suspect me of abusing sick leave or verify my illness (which sounds super draconian). if I'm not feeling well, it's just a quick slack message and then I go back to drinking tea with lemon. also, unused PTO is usually paid out when you leave the company in the private sector. sick leave, AFAIK, is usually not.

there's definitely something to your public health argument, but as an individual it's hard to see why I would ever prefer x PTO + y sick leave over (x + y) PTO.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#56

What about the employees who are happy to stay ready 'on-call', in a position where they are payed more then they've ever made? Could the employee make an agreement with his/her employer, or would such an agreement be deemed 'unlawful' under the new law?

This is the concern I have with these policies. I completely understand (and mostly agree with) the general case they are going for in which we should not be abusing employees who are susceptible to abuse. There are classes of individuals who are far more easy to manipulate into hellish work circumstances than others. Those on work visas are particularly on edge.

But, these policies also put tricky restrictions around those who love the challenge of ridiculous overtime sprints (These people do actually exist). Protecting the general case can temper the edge cases. In this situation, I would argue the "edge cases" are not adverse. I think you want those types desperately, because that's where all the frontier advancement usually occurs. I.e. the linux kernel didn't get written over a bunch of carefully-metered 40 hour work weeks with mandatory EU breaks throughout. Works of passion and innovation need to occur organically, and in all cases this involves periods of furious productivity interspersed with total dead zones.

I actually caught some flak from a developer because I kept insisting that they have worked plenty this week so far and should consider taking a break. I eventually got a sharp rebuke like - "Why can't I work on this if I really want to?". I was left with no rational response beyond stating arbitrary metrics. This is a reaction that I could see myself having as well if the roles were reversed.

Perhaps we should arrive at a system where the EU restrictions are default, and employers can file for exemptions using some reasonable process in which employees participate via explicit opt-in, and the opt-in status in no way predicates acceptance of the applicant by the employer.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#57

Love this. I've increasingly seen and heard employers trying to take advantage of the current situation and we need more regulation and protection for workers. People are being asked to do extra and too afraid to speak out especially with so many companies making redundancies. One area of focus for me is sickness and working from home. Sick days should be about rest and recovering both physically and mentally. Often…

This is all good for now, until the day when Chinese goods become so expensive priced in Euro/USD that Europeans will have hard time being able to afford them. And that day is coming.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

Even better: Sick days shouldn't be a pool at all. In Norway there's X amount of sick days one can use without any hassle (all paid), to use any more all you have to do is show a doctors note. If you have to use more than Y amount of days (chronic illness, a more serious thing or something), the government will temporarily take on the responsibility of paying the worker's wages. I don't think people should be punishe…

In Poland the number of sick days is unlimited but you need a form filled by an actual MD in order to claim it. Vacation days are separate pool.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#59
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

I disagree with your assessment in the strongest terms as I have personally experienced them being separate as achieving the opposite most of my 15 year career. Places I had worked including my current employer, vacation days need to be scheduled at least a week+ in advance. As a person who gets sick a lot I almost always end up having to take unpaid days off when I’m sick because I blew though my 3-5 sick days. Plac…

It sounds like the problem is in having such a small pool of sick days, not in the concept of separation. By no fault of your own, by getting sick more often, you are forced to give up income (current situation) or to give up your vacation (merged PTO). Neither of those is an acceptable situation, and the solution is to have more reasonable sick leave policies.

Re: EU pushes for 'right to disconnect' from work at home

#60

Love this. I've increasingly seen and heard employers trying to take advantage of the current situation and we need more regulation and protection for workers. People are being asked to do extra and too afraid to speak out especially with so many companies making redundancies. One area of focus for me is sickness and working from home. Sick days should be about rest and recovering both physically and mentally. Often…

Along the same lines on sick days, I think it should be forbidden for employers to merge vacation days and sick days into "PTO". Merging the pools gives an incentive for people to come to work while ill. For example, suppose somebody has 3 PTO days remaining for the year, and they are all earmarked for Christmas vacation with family. If that person catches the flu in early December, their options are (a) cancel Chris…

A pool of sickdays? What the? Is there a pool of cancer days too?
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