Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

platformer.news

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

721–730 of 926 posts

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#721

Post by throw__awvlilds »

fmajid wrote: post #473
parliament32 wrote: post #26

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? > Thanks for making your conditions clear. We cannot agree to #1 and #2 as you are requesting. We respect your decision to leave Google as a result, and we are accepting your resignation. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364…

> Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? No. No COBRA benefits and usually no severance. Also the employee is not eligible for unemployment benefits.

I'm pretty sure if you resign you're still entitled to access the employers' health plan via COBRA? (Distinct issue from whether, as part of a severance package, the company agrees to pay for some/all of it)

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#722

Post by deanCommie »

4bpp wrote: post #694
deanCommie wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wife says to her programmer husband, "Go to the store and buy a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, buy a dozen." Husband returns with 12 loaves of bread. Most software engineers can read the above joke, and laugh at themselves, then go ahead and upvote your comment not realizing that it is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Employee: "This is extremely important to me. If you can't address what is important to me, then I can't w…

The joke is a pretty good one, but what's the supposed parallel with the scenario at hand? There is a meaningful interpretation of "buy a dozen" that the wife intended to convey but the programmer fails to notice (because he lacks common-sense knowledge about typical purchase volumes of different items and/or is blinded by the parallelism of "buy a... if , buy a..."). What is the meaningful common-sense interpretatio…

> What is the meaningful common-sense interpretation of "I can't work here anymore" (was that even the literal wording?) that Timnit intended and Google failed to recognise?

That something completely UNACCEPTABLE is happening, and needs to be addressed.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#723

Post by x0x0 »

GVIrish wrote: post #548
hpoe wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote from Dean's email "Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback." I can imagine wanting to know the feedback, but she didn't ask for that she asked for the identity of everyone pe…

A few things don't add up then. Timnit claims that she was told at a meeting called on short notice that her paper was being retracted because of anonymous feedback. She said she asked about the substance of the feedback and they refused to tell her. After that meeting, she is told she can be read a private document with some, but not all of the anonymous feedback. That led to Gebru sending a frustrated email to her…

Some guesswork:

Per Dean, Timnit appears to have precipitated this by violating internal process for a 2 week internal review period and approval before external submission of a paper. (I have no idea how regularly this process is enforced, but I think it's standard in the industry). And then -- reading between the lines -- reacted poorly to the lack of approval. Whence Dean and Megan made the decision to force a retraction.

Then Timnit demanded the names and feedback of the reviewers. Again, as an outsider, I have no idea if the provision of this is customary. But not just the reviewers; also everyone that Dean and Megan had spoken with.

I do wonder how much of this was the irregular process around the paper, her reaction to criticism of the paper, or her public criticism of DEI efforts, particularly as a manager. Or all of the above.

Calling out your leadership chain, both for DEI metrics and for behavior about the paper -- while also disclosing that you seriously considering suing Google -- seems unwise if you don't wish to be terminated.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#724

Post by bravura »

rndgermandude wrote: post #695
hardwaregeek wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

>unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist Tell that to Gandhi, tell that to the many people in the Civil Rights Movement and Martin Luther King, tell that to the people who were in the Monday demonstrations in East Germany, the list goes on.

Martin Luther King was assassinated.

His demeanor was polite, but his impact was rude and abrasive to many (racist) people.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#725

Post by hardwaregeek »

rndgermandude wrote: post #695
hardwaregeek wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

>unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist Tell that to Gandhi, tell that to the many people in the Civil Rights Movement and Martin Luther King, tell that to the people who were in the Monday demonstrations in East Germany, the list goes on.

The Freedom Riders did something fundamentally abhorrent to southerners. They went into white establishments as black people (or accompanying black people). It's only because of changing norms that we don't see their actions as horrifically rude or even violent in nature.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#726

Post by anon7725 »

GVIrish wrote: post #548
hpoe wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote from Dean's email "Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback." I can imagine wanting to know the feedback, but she didn't ask for that she asked for the identity of everyone pe…

A few things don't add up then. Timnit claims that she was told at a meeting called on short notice that her paper was being retracted because of anonymous feedback. She said she asked about the substance of the feedback and they refused to tell her. After that meeting, she is told she can be read a private document with some, but not all of the anonymous feedback. That led to Gebru sending a frustrated email to her…

> The feedback Dean cites that led to the retraction doesn't at all sound like something that required the protection of identities, and certainly nothing that required keeping that feedback secret.

Perhaps the reviewers were afraid of being dragged on Twitter and possibly having their careers destroyed as a result.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#727

Post by hardwaregeek »

hpoe wrote: post #577
hardwaregeek wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

May I direct you to watch Daryl Davis's ted talk or really anything he speaks about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw For context he is a black man that has gotten over a hundred leaders of the KKK, including former convicts to leave the Klan. Not by arguing with them, not be reasoning, not by showing them the effects of their behaviour, but instead by sitting down, talking with them and becoming their fri…

Daryl Davis is certainly a wonderful inspiration in his patience, compassion and effectiveness in reaching racists. However I'm not sure about using him as a model for how activists should behave. What that's essentially requiring is that activists should patiently reach out until the people oppressing them learn enough to stop oppressing them.

In some cases this is possible. The Klu Klux Klan is comprised of broken men who dance in costumes at night. What about the racists who do not do that? Who enact their racism as government policy? Or as housing discrimination? Or through their art?

How long will it take to reach them? To quote James Baldwin^[1]:

> You always told me it takes time. It's taken my father's time, my mother's time, my uncle's time, my brothers' and my sisters' time, my nieces' and my nephews' time. How much time do you want. For your progress.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCUlE5ldPvM

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#728

Post by PrefixKitten »

tfehring wrote: post #705
njanirudh wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its more like " There are difficulties on collecting data and historical reasons that leads to bias in the trained model" Other side " no you are a racist and responsible for bias due for being a white male"

It's pretty clear that Gebru criticized LeCun for being apathetic about an obviously biased model, not because he's a white male. And again, "There are difficulties on collecting data and historical reasons that leads to bias in the trained model" is accurate, but it's still a total cop-out! There's no way Facebook would let results like [0] slide if there were money at stake - they'd get more training data, or even…

All real world data is inherently biased... Don't they teach this fact in introductory statistics? I can't imagine otherwise.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#729

Post by esyir »

xibalba wrote: post #607
hardwaregeek wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to distinguish between social activist and politician. Social activists can certainly be politicians, such as Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bernie Sanders etc. But many are not. Obama is not a social activist. He's an effective politician, one who has certainly brought about change. But he's not a social activist. Many social activists were famously unpopular. Martin Luther King died with a 66…

Obama got his start as an actual activist, under the title of "community organizer", in Chicago. Even in his early years, he clearly understood that to get real results, you have to make compromises and avoid demonizing people on the other side of issues. To my eye, Obama's emotional intelligence, communication ability, and strategic aptitude are genius-level-off-the-charts-stupendous, whereas these firebrand activis…

If I may put it differently, you know how most on the left see trump as infantile, poor of character, and so on

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#730

Post by dash2 »

thebladerunner wrote: post #447
ConceptJunkie wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the feedback itself wasn't shared with her. That part doesn't make sense unless management didn't want her to see it, and why would that be the case?

Because (a) by the rules of engagement, management is not required to share original feedback, and (b) the original feedback could be used to identify the sources. In this case, there might have been a real risk to the sources given the individual in question is known to mobilize internal and external forces like Twitter mobs to personally attack people and bully them into submission.

I think this argument would stand on its own without the very specific claims about the person in question, which are a little strong unless you have personal information.
Post reply on HN