AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#691

Post by njanirudh » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:13 AM UTC

tfehring wrote: post #688

hintymad wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy. Just call that person a racist, a bigot, or an oppressor without a shred of evidence. > A person: I think bias in machine learning is caused by bias in training data. > Me: Why are you ignoring all I've been saying? You're a racist. You're a white man who oppresses. I'm not going to talk to a bigot like you. Repeat this a few times, the attacked will be punished both online and offline. Justice served.

I don't think that's a fair characterization of Gebru's argument there at all. A better summary might be "You're the Chief AI Scientist at a massively influential and profitable company with billions of users and exabytes of data, you can't just throw up your hands and say 'welp, that's what the model spits out so that's what we're stuck with.'"

Its more like " There are difficulties on collecting data and historical reasons that leads to bias in the trained model" Other side " no you are a racist and responsible for bias due for being a white male"

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#692

Post by sjs382 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:16 AM UTC

tfehring wrote: post #690

davorak wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the subtle part might be "It was approved then", I read that somewhere too and it was not clear whether it was approved by google despite it not following the normal 2 week process or if it was talking about some other form of approval.

From Dean's email: > Unfortunately, this particular paper was only shared with a day’s notice before its deadline — we require two weeks for this sort of review — and then instead of awaiting reviewer feedback, it was approved for submission and submitted. Not sure what to make of that - maybe that Gebru submitted the paper and then immediately clicked the "approve" button herself?

Yeah, I had a hard time making heads and tails of what that bit meant, exactly.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#693

Post by njanirudh » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:16 AM UTC

kmonsen wrote: post #573

1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

Not disputing what you are saying, but there seems to be more to the story. If this is all that happened why not let her resign on her own (perhaps take action if this did not happen after n months). Surely that would create less publicity.

She sounds like a deranged person.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#694

Post by 4bpp » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:21 AM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #450

parliament32 wrote: post #26

I don't think "fired" is the right choice of words -- she gave an ultimatum offering to resign, and they accepted her resignation. Is accepting a resignation the same as firing someone? > Thanks for making your conditions clear. We cannot agree to #1 and #2 as you are requesting. We respect your decision to leave Google as a result, and we are accepting your resignation. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364…

Wife says to her programmer husband, "Go to the store and buy a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, buy a dozen." Husband returns with 12 loaves of bread. Most software engineers can read the above joke, and laugh at themselves, then go ahead and upvote your comment not realizing that it is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Employee: "This is extremely important to me. If you can't address what is important to me, then I can't w…

The joke is a pretty good one, but what's the supposed parallel with the scenario at hand? There is a meaningful interpretation of "buy a dozen" that the wife intended to convey but the programmer fails to notice (because he lacks common-sense knowledge about typical purchase volumes of different items and/or is blinded by the parallelism of "buy a... if , buy a..."). What is the meaningful common-sense interpretation of "I can't work here anymore" (was that even the literal wording?) that Timnit intended and Google failed to recognise?

If you are instead just saying that Google should have let it slide because it was just an emotional outburst ("anger and frustrations") and not meant to be taken seriously, well, in what context can we hold adults to their word at all? Email is written communication, not an offhand verbal remark uttered in a tense meeting in anger. You should be able to see what you are about to send while typing it, and have ample opportunity to look over it again before you press that "Send" button. If your ability to review your words has atrophied, perhaps under the influence of social media which encourages "unfiltered" stream-of-consciousness venting, then this ought to be on you, simply because it is doubtful that society can function without some possibility of making binding statements and we do not have anything more commitmental than email widely deployed (and operable at the pace of the modern workplace) in work-from-home times.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#695

Post by rndgermandude » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:21 AM UTC

hardwaregeek wrote: post #555

stevecalifornia wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are probably going to be a very successful computer person. But you're going to go through life thinking that girls don't like you because you're a nerd. And I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won't be true. It'll be because you're an asshole." ~ The Social Network A good number of social activists are rude and abrasive and then blame how people react as racism/sexism. No one wants to be…

That's a little ungenerous. Social activists may go over the line and be rude or abrasive, but unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist. Activism fundamentally requires telling people that their actions should be modified, that their beliefs may be flawed, that their systems have problems. It's really hard to do that and be a likeable person. Of course social activists may at times cross the line…

>unfortunately it's impossible to be a polite social activist

Tell that to Gandhi, tell that to the many people in the Civil Rights Movement and Martin Luther King, tell that to the people who were in the Monday demonstrations in East Germany, the list goes on.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#696

Post by dekhn » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:22 AM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #643

gonehome wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thread (it was a retweet with comment, naturally). https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1275162528511860737 Whatever your position, Yann engages on substance, and Timnit is obnoxious: https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1275191341455048704?s... https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1275191515380215808?s... Basically the worst of online discourse, but in this case one-sided. Yann is discussing in good fai…

> Whatever your position, Yann engages on substance, and Timnit is obnoxious: For what it's worth, I and many others disagree with this characterization. I find Yann comes across as incredibly condescending and holier than thou in their interactions. Nor does Yann engage on substance. He refuses to take the time engage with, or even acknowledge that he has read, the relevant academic literature (which Timnit repeated…

I guess the way I think about it is this: Yann has a long history in ML. He's probably had to deal with bias problems for decades. Probably pretty experienced with it. Now he's heading up some Facebook ML stuff and on a daily basis he watches hundreds to thousands of engineers work on systems that process and learn from billions of users. I feel like after you do that for a while, you gain enough wisdom and experience to deserve to be engaged with respect and thoughtfulness. She has repeatedly engaged with bad faith, misleading interpretations of intent, and is just sort of really "attacky". Sure, he's a bit condescending (I've seen the same thing and it annoyed me for a bit, then I kind of read about what he's done and realized: he's got tons of experience and data about this and works with it at scale constantly.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#697

Post by caconym_ » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:24 AM UTC

hardwaregeek wrote: post #550

1024core wrote: post #449

This person forced Yann LeCun (one of the top 3 AI/ML researchers today, head of Facebook AI, and an ML researcher since the 80s) to give up on Twitter after she took exception to this tweet of his: https://twitter.com/ylecun/status/1274782757907030016 She lives her life attacking people who she disagrees with, and brings in race/gender into any conflict where she's involved. I am surprised Google had hired her, beca…

I do not know the details of this case and I can't speak to the subject's character. However I can't help but note that people who study the effects of race and gender tend to bring race/gender into anything and everything, because well, that's their job. If your response is that race and gender should be brought into only the areas where race and gender are relevant, I'd respond that the prevailing opinion among gen…

There's a big difference between raising honest, thoughtful points about social justice issues (even forcefully), and using those same issues (superficially) as a cudgel to marginalize your enemies and increase your own social power (and note that those things don't have to be happening at the same time).

These days I see a lot of both. I also have no idea what happened in this specific case, and at this time I wouldn't be willing to take a side.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#698

Post by rndgermandude » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:25 AM UTC

hardwaregeek wrote: post #598

madrox wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ilhan Omar said something similar on Twitter in response to Obama's criticisms of the "defund the police" slogan. I think you're being overly generous to social activists. Their fundamental job is to bring social change. You can't change anything by simply alienating those who disagree with you. That creates political entrenchment. The fact is that Obama has got way more done for America than Omar, so I'm inclined to…

I think we need to distinguish between social activist and politician. Social activists can certainly be politicians, such as Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bernie Sanders etc. But many are not. Obama is not a social activist. He's an effective politician, one who has certainly brought about change. But he's not a social activist. Many social activists were famously unpopular. Martin Luther King died with a 66…

>Many social activists were famously unpopular. Martin Luther King died with a 66% disapproval rating^[1].

Being unpopular is hardly the same as being abrasive and rude.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#699

Post by joshuamorton » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:26 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #672

joshuamorton wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever your position, Yann engages on substance, and Timnit is obnoxious: For what it's worth, I and many others disagree with this characterization. I find Yann comes across as incredibly condescending and holier than thou in their interactions. Nor does Yann engage on substance. He refuses to take the time engage with, or even acknowledge that he has read, the relevant academic literature (which Timnit repeated…

People can read the thread for themselves and decide. I see a quote tweet from Timnit with "I'm sick of this framing...listen to us", then misquoting what he said. Ignoring his replies and then following up with "I'm disengaging for my sanity...not worth my time...Maybe your colleagues will try to educate you..." etc. She attacks him (so he replies) and then she ignores him and talks down to him. I don't have a dog i…

Yes, you've made your position clear. I'm simply asking that you acknowledge that not everyone agrees with you, instead of making sweeping statements that no matter your opinion, Timnit was "obnoxious". You have your view of the events, I'm not trying to convince you to change it. I'm simply saying that other people disagree. No need to continue to try and justify yourself.

Re: AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google

#700

Post by joshuamorton » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 3:29 AM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #696

joshuamorton wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever your position, Yann engages on substance, and Timnit is obnoxious: For what it's worth, I and many others disagree with this characterization. I find Yann comes across as incredibly condescending and holier than thou in their interactions. Nor does Yann engage on substance. He refuses to take the time engage with, or even acknowledge that he has read, the relevant academic literature (which Timnit repeated…

I guess the way I think about it is this: Yann has a long history in ML. He's probably had to deal with bias problems for decades. Probably pretty experienced with it. Now he's heading up some Facebook ML stuff and on a daily basis he watches hundreds to thousands of engineers work on systems that process and learn from billions of users. I feel like after you do that for a while, you gain enough wisdom and experienc…

My understanding is that this is not the first time they engaged on this type of topic, and Yann has a history of ignoring other people who brought up similar criticisms to him (at conferences, etc.)

At some point you lose the assumption of good faith, and deserve to be called out for refusing to learn.

For what it's worth, I'm well aware of who Yann is, and was at the time as well. That doesn't make him immune to being wrong. (Nor, by the way, do I see any bad faith in her initial tweet. I see exasperation, but not bad faith).